KN Snp 5.1 non Buddhist doing jhana, with 5 hindrances present (while in jhana)

• KN Snp 5.1 vatthu-gāthā (prologue-verses)

A rival Brahman had threatened to kill Bavari with his mighty psychic power and split his head into 7 pieces. In response, Bavarai was terrified, but did not lose his jhana ability:

♦ 991.
♦ ussussati anāhāro,	He wasted away, taking no food,
sokasallasamappito.	afflicted with the arrow of grief,
♦ athopi evaṃ cittassa,	and, with his mind this way,
jhāne na ramatī mano.	his heart found no delight in jhāna.

These 16 students of Bavarai (haven't met the Buddha yet) could all do jhana! Note to  Ajahn Brahm, the Buddha did not invent Jhana like you claim. 

♦ 1015.
♦ paccekagaṇino sabbe,	all          with their own groups,
Sabba-lokassa vissutā.	famed in  all the world,
♦ jhāyī jhāna-ratā dhīrā,	endowed          with jhāna, delighting          in jhāna,
pubbavāsanavāsitā.	Enlightened, perfume          with perfumes3 from previous lives,

The beginning of the sutta mentions  Bavari was working on developing the formless attainment of nothingness, the highest perception samadhi. From the 16 questions from 16 students of Bavari in this Snp vagga, at least 2 of the suttas (Snp 5.7 and Snp 5.15) are unequivocally describing that same attainment of nothingness, so we know at least 2 of Bavari's students are skilled in that samadhi.  

♦ 982.
♦ kosalānaṃ purā rammā,	From the delightful city of the Kosalans,
agamā dakkhiṇāpathaṃ.	a brahman [Bāvarī]
♦ ākiñcaññaṃ patthayāno,	who had mastered mantras,
brāhmaṇo manta-pāragū.	aspiring to nothingness,1
	went to the Southern country.

Given some if not all of Bavari's 16 students, and Bavari himself  have some skill in formless attainments, when it talks about their jhana meditation, and enjoyment meditation, it's fair to assume they are talking about 4 jhanas quality of jhana, since those skills are generally prerequisite for formless attainments. 

Now all of this was before they met the Buddha, so we can see there were non-Buddhist jhanas that were functionally equivalent to samma samadhi 4 jhanas, minus the stated purpose of using that quality of samadhi to realize nirvana.

Conclusion

♦ 991.
♦ ussussati anāhāro,	He wasted away, taking no food,
sokasallasamappito.	afflicted with the arrow of grief,
♦ athopi evaṃ cittassa,	and, with his mind this way,
jhāne na ramatī mano.	his heart found no delight in jhāna.

So given all the information above, it's pretty safe to deduce that Bavari, who was meditating with fear from the death threat,  could still do jhana, but an impure version of jhana (such as ones described in SN 40 and AN 9.41).

What are the implications of this?

1. His heart (mano) could not delight (rama) in the jhana, yet there must have been some aspect of intrinsic qualities of the 4 jhanas that were present in his meditation. This would be the physical pleasure of sukha in the first three jhanas. 

2. You can see that Visuddhimagga and Ajahn Brahm's redefinition of jhana clearly would not work in this sutta. If you were in a formless frozen stupor, you would not be able to "not delight in jhana" until after you emerged from the frozen stupor.

In other words, if Jabrama👻🥶-jhana and VRJ👻🥶 had a correct description of jhana as described in the suttas, there's no way you would describe the mind (mano) not delighting in jhana. Either you can enter a jhana of formless frozen stupor, and emerge afterwards to delight in it, or you simply can not enter that frozen stupor jhana at all when you're gripped in fear. Either you can do "Jhana" and have delight free of 5 hindrances, or you can't. 

Forum  discussion

 

hindrances and jhana factors...can they coexist?