Ven. Sujato doesn't understand how jhāna works in EBT, Vimuttimagga, and Visuddhimagga
a user on Sujato's forum said (paraphrase):
I wanted to read one or other of the Vimuttimagga or VisuddhimaggaSujato responded in July, 2022
When I started reading it [vimutti magga] I was vaguely thinking I might do [teach] a course on it similar to the one I did on the Visuddhimagga. But as I went on I realized it was so very similar there would be little reason to.
If anyone’s wanting to read one or the other, it really comes down to whether you like things straightforward and are happy with plain doctrine—Vimuttimagga—or if you like the stories and extra background and explanation—Visuddhimagga. The wisdom section has some more substantive differences, but apart from that it’s more about style rather than content.
Frank [incredulous] wonders: Did Sujato skip the sections (most of Vimutti-magga) on meditation and jhāna?
Visuddhimagga redefines "jhāna" as a disembodied frozen stupor, and they very scrupulously avoid discussing the famous four jhāna similes at all, because it makes their redefinition of kāya (physical body) as "only mental body devoid of physical" pretty obviously heretical.
69.Iti evaṃ nimittābhimukhaṃ mānasaṃ paṭipādayato panassa idāni appanā ijjhissatīti bhavaṅgaṃ upacchinditvā pathavī pathavīti anuyogavasena upaṭṭhitaṃ tadeva pathavīkasiṇaṃ ārammaṇaṃ katvā manodvārāvajjanamuppajjati. | 74. So, while he is guiding his mind in this way, confronting the sign, [then knowing]: “Now absorption will succeed,” there arises in him mind-door adverting with that same earth kasiṇa as its object, interrupting the [occurrence of consciousness as] life-continuum, and evoked by the constant repeating of “earth, earth.” |
Tato tasmiṃyevārammaṇe cattāri pañca vā javanāni javanti. | After that, either four or five impulsions impel on that same object, |
Tesu avasāne ekaṃ rūpāvacaraṃ, sesāni kāmāvacarāni. | the last one of which is an impulsion of the fine-material sphere. The rest are of the sense sphere, |
Pakaticittehi balavataravitakkavicārapītisukhacittekaggatāni yāni appanāya parikammattā parikammānītipi, yathā gāmādīnaṃ āsannapadeso gāmūpacāro nagarūpacāroti vuccati, evaṃ appanāya āsannattā samīpacārattā vā upacārānītipi, ito pubbe parikammānaṃ, upari appanāya ca anulomato anulomānītipi vuccanti. | but they have stronger applied thought, sustained thought, happiness, bliss-(sukha), and unification of mind than the normal ones. They are called “preliminary work” [consciousnesses] because they are the preliminary work for absorption; [138] and they are also called “access” [consciousnesses] because of their nearness to absorption because they happen in its neighbourhood, just as the words “village access” and “city access” are used for a place near to a village, etc.; and they are also called “conformity” [consciousnesses] because they conform to those that precede the “preliminary work” [consciousnesses] and to the absorption that follows. |
Yañcettha sabbantimaṃ, taṃ parittagottābhibhavanato, mahaggatagottabhāvanato ca gotrabhūtipi vuccati. | And the last of these is also called “change- of-lineage” because it transcends the limited [sense-sphere] lineage and brings into being the exalted [fine-material-sphere] lineage. 18 |
frank: note that Vism. redefinition of jhāna contradicts EBT suttas, also contradicts the Theravāda commentary glossing kāya in jhāna, and the jhāna similes, as a physical body made of 4 elements, including skin, bones, heart, etc. Physical body organs.
That's why Vism. avoids discussing the jhāna similes. They want you to ignore those inconvenient truths.
Vimutti magga on the other hand,
doesn't try to redefine kāya (body) as not physical.
Vimt. does not shy away from glossing the jhāna similes (pervading physical body with pleasure).
Vimutiimagga, unlike Vism. and Ajahn Brahm, do not redefine vitakka and vicāra as a disembodied frozen stupor where the mind is glued to a visual kasina until after emerging from this frozen state.
Vimt. understands vitakka as verbal thought, linguistic, just like EBT suttas, just like Abhidhamma Vibhanga.
In Vimt. second jhāna gloss for example:
31 Factors of the second jhāna
This is the explanation of the four factors of the second jhāna:
The meditator, with the stilling of thinking and exploring, dwells having entered upon the second jhāna, which has internal confidence and singleness of mind, is without thinking and exploring, and is with rapture and pleasure born of concentration.
This is the explanation of the four factors of the second jhāna:
The meditator, with the stilling of thinking and exploring, dwells having entered upon the second jhāna, which has internal confidence and singleness of mind, is without thinking and exploring, and is with rapture and pleasure born of concentration.
....
“Internal” ( ajjhatta):
what is personal ( paccatta) is called “internal”.
what is personal ( paccatta) is called “internal”.
Q. What is “internal in the sense of personal”?
A. The six internal sense bases. {frank: 6th sense is mind, first five senses are the physical body}
“Internal concentration” is the contemplation of one’s own body — this is called “internal concentration”.
A. The six internal sense bases. {frank: 6th sense is mind, first five senses are the physical body}
“Internal concentration” is the contemplation of one’s own body — this is called “internal concentration”.
....
later, Vimt. glossing kāya (body) in the jhāna simile:
Therefore, the Fortunate One taught the bhikkhus:
“It is like a pond fed by a spring into which no water flows from the four directions, nor does rain fall into it from time to time.
The cool water that wells up from that spring saturates, drenches, and pervades [the pond].
Just so, the bhikkhu makes the rapture and pleasure born from concentration refresh his body, without there being [any part] that is not permeated.
The rapture and pleasure born from concentration pervade his body [and] mind completely”.
250
Like the spring in this simile, the body of the meditator who enters upon the second jhāna should be understood.
The absence of any water flowing in from any of the four directions and the absence of rain falling in, should be understood as the stilling of thinking and exploring.
As the water welling up from the spring, causing the body [of water] to become full without causing waves to arise in it,
[419a] so rapture and pleasure born of concentration pervade the name-and-matter body ( nāma-rūpa-kāya) without causing distraction of mind.
As cool water causes the body to become refreshed and pervades it all over, so rapture and pleasure born of concentration completely fill the whole name-and-matter body.
That is just one instance where Vimuttimagga agrees with the EBT suttas on jhāna being an embodied, physical experience where the mind thinks verbal thoughts in first jhāna, and second jhāna and beyond the mind mentally processes and lucidly discerns with sati, sampajāno (wisdom faculty) and upekkha (upa + ikkhati = insight).
This is in stark contrast to Visuddhimagga, Ajahn Brahm and Sujato's redefinition of "jhāna" as a disembodied frozen stupor.
Many other examples in Vimt. jhāna differing from Vism. and Ajahn Brahm.
Breath meditation for example, glossing step 3 and 4 "body" from 16 steps.
8.11.7.5.3 - (3) “He trains, ‘Experiencing the whole body
(3) “He trains, ‘Experiencing the whole body, I breathe in …’.”In two ways, he experiences the whole body:
through non-delusion and through the object.
Q. How does he experience the whole body through non-delusion?
A. If the meditator [gains the] concentration of mindfulness of breathing, the body and mind become completely pervaded with rapture and pleasure
( pītisukha).
649 Owing to this pervasion with rapture and pleasure, the whole body is [experienced through] non-delusion.
Q. How does he experience the whole body through the object?
A. The in-breaths and out-breaths conjoined with that [body]650 are the matter-body ( rūpakāya).
The mind and the mental properties [conjoined with]
the object of the in-breaths and out-breaths are the name-body ( nāmakāya).
These [two bodies] called “matter-body” and “name-body”651 are the “whole body”.
The meditator, by contemplating [impermanence, etc. ], experiences the whole body thus:
“Although there is the body, there is no being, no soul ( nissata, nijjīva).”
649 Owing to this pervasion with rapture and pleasure, the whole body is [experienced through] non-delusion.
Q. How does he experience the whole body through the object?
A. The in-breaths and out-breaths conjoined with that [body]650 are the matter-body ( rūpakāya).
The mind and the mental properties [conjoined with]
the object of the in-breaths and out-breaths are the name-body ( nāmakāya).
These [two bodies] called “matter-body” and “name-body”651 are the “whole body”.
The meditator, by contemplating [impermanence, etc. ], experiences the whole body thus:
“Although there is the body, there is no being, no soul ( nissata, nijjīva).”
...
And step 4 one is observing physical body while in the 4 jhānas
8.11.7.5.4 - (4) “He trains, ‘Calming the bodily formations
(4) “He trains, ‘Calming the bodily formations, I breathe in …’.”Why is it called “bodily formations”?
While breathing in and out there occur such bodily formations as bending the body, stretching, bending forward, moving, trembling, shaking, and swaying [of the body].
He calms such bodily formations.
654
Furthermore, he calms the coarse bodily formations and through the subtle bodily formations develops the first jhāna.
From there, through the more subtle bodily formations, he develops the second jhāna.
From there, through the [still] more subtle bodily formations, he develops the third jhāna.
Then, having stopped [the bodily formations] without remainder, he develops the fourth jhāna.
Conclusion: Sujato redefines kāya (physical body) of third jhāna as "personal experience"
Because, why not?
The suttas, Vimutti magga, Visuddhi magga, all understand jhāna the same way (according to Sujato).
And with the fading away of rapture, they enter and remain in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.
3rd Jhāna (frank trans.)
🚫😁 pītiyā ca virāgā | With [mental] rapture fading, |
👁 upekkhako ca viharati | he lives equanimously observing [☸Dharmas with subverbal mental processing]. |
(S&S🐘💭) sato ca sam-pajāno, | remembering [and applying relevant ☸Dharma], he lucidly discerns. |
🙂🚶 sukhañca kāyena paṭi-saṃ-vedeti, | He experiences pleasure with the [physical] body. |
yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti — | The Noble Ones praise this [stage of jhāna in particular because they expect this to be the normal state of the average monk in all postures at all times]: |
‘upekkhako satimā sukha-vihārī’ti | "He lives happily with pleasure, Equanimously observing and remembering [to engage in relevant ☸Dharma]." |
🌖 tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. | he attains and lives in third jhāna. |
Forum discussion
https://www.reddit.com/r/EarlyBuddhistTexts/comments/1btvltd/comment/kxon17g/?context=3
@ClearlySeeingLife wrote:
I know who Venerable Sujato is and I have an idea of what his credentials are.
To us, you are just an anonymous person on the Internet making divisive speech.
Who are you and what are your credentials in regards to being qualifed to comment on the Pali Canon?
@frank responds:
What are your credentials for demonstrating independent, critical thinking, able to form your own opinions and examine evidence for yourself, rather than blindly follow popular teachers?
I posted links to the excerpts, and links to the entire works they were excerpted from, in pali + english so you can validate the source, evaluate the evidence and think for yourselves.
@bath_powder wrote:
Ignoring the game of credentialism, these passages are not difficult or challenging.
They don’t require a phd to understand.
They both are relatively short.
This issue from OP is very clearcut.
Vimuttimagga explicitly has the pleasure of jhana pervading the body.
Visuddhimagga explicitly says the senses are shut.
About an hour or two of careful and objective study of each, which are freely available, makes this obvious beyond doubt.
Or you can just read the snippets Frank provided which is much faster, although you may suspect cherry picking idk (it’s not cherry picked-I’ve read the entirety of both samadhi sections multiple times).
Of course, that careful and objective reading seems to be beyond most unfortunately.
Even famous monastics are often strongly swayed by their own biases, and it’s not just limited to Ajahn Sujato unfortunately.
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