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Is it possible to attain Ajahn Brahm’s jhanas without either 1)keeping the precepts or 2)seeing danger in sensual pleasures?




From a recent discussion on sutta central:

Is it possible to attain Ajahn Brahm’s jhanas without either 1)keeping the precepts or 2)seeing danger in sensual pleasures?


Darayavaush asked on suttacentral:


Is it possible to attain Ajahn Brahm’s jhanas without either 
1)keeping the precepts or 
2)seeing danger in sensual pleasures?

... (and later in the thread)...

    I also wonder what Vens @Brahmali and @Sunyo think about this matter.
Because for me it seems that you can enter Aj. Brahm’s jhanas 
without fulfilling either of the two mentioned conditions. 
But if it is so, then what Aj. Brahm teaches simply can’t be jhanas (at least right jhanas) 
 and hence can’t lead to any meaningful liberation.


Ajahn Brahmali responded:


You have to live a generally ethical life, but you can make occasional mistakes.
 Is this what you mean?
 At the time of entering a jhāna, however, your mind has to be completely pure and thus ethical.

And yes, you have to see the danger in sensual pleasures to enter jhāna.
 This is straight from the suttas:

    Mendicants, without giving up these six qualities you can’t enter and remain in the first absorption.
 What six?
 Desire for sensual pleasures, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt.
 And the drawbacks of sensual pleasures have not been truly seen clearly with right wisdom.
 Without giving up these six qualities you can’t enter and remain in the first absorption.
 (AN 6.73)

I have never heard Ajahn Brahm denying this.


Frankk explains what's really going on

Ajahn Brahm doesn't deny it, but he doesn't explain how it actually works if you try to follow
his corrupt translation and interpretation of the first jhāna formula.

This is how things actually work in an oral tradition: 
Disciples memorize and frequently recite, reflect on the meaning of the first jhāna formula.
But if you redefine the formula into some completely alien and corrupt samādhi, 
then how does it connect to AN 6.73 (and the scores of other suttas that gloss meaning for first jhāna formula)?

In the Buddha's first jhāna formula (with correct translation),
Kāma is desire for sensual pleasure,
and the vitakka are verbal thoughts related to renunciation thoughts in first jhāna (renouncing sensual pleasures).

The sutta Brahmali quotes (AN 6.73) is part of a sequence of 3 suttas defining kāma, vitakka, in exactly that way, essentially glossing those terms in first jhāna formula.


But Ajahn Brahm redefines kāma and vitakka in the first jhāna formula,
as being in a disembodied frozen stupor,
where the 5 bodily sense faculties can't function,
verbal thought, and subverbal thought is not possible,
the mind is in a frozen stupor for a predetermined amount of time before one emerges from Brahm's corrupt redefinition of "jhāna".

So (genuine) first jhāna's connection to understanding and renouncing sensual pleasures,
is completely lost and supposedly can't happen since the mind is in a frozen stupor.

Ajahn Brahm's corrupt redefinition of first jhāna loses all connection to the four noble truths, 
especially seeing, understanding, and renouncing sensual pleasures and craving.

In essence, Ajahn Brahm, Brahmali, in throwing out the Buddha's dictionary, 
and creating their corrupt one,
is showing their respect to the Buddha and genuine Dhamma like so:








So to answer the original question,
Is it possible to attain Ajahn Brahm’s jhanas without either 
1)keeping the precepts or 
2)seeing danger in sensual pleasures?

Yes it is.
In fact, you can find plenty of non Buddhist meditation experts (throughout history) who could do 
Ajahn Brahm's non-Buddhist disembodied frozen stupor "jhāna".

And they didn't require keeping precepts,
seeing danger in sensual pleasures.

Some of them led ethical lives and attain favorable deva rebirth,
some used their samādhi to indulge in base sensual desires, worldly gains, even evil deeds, including heinous crime.


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