Wednesday, September 16, 2020

MN 111: example of typical fallacious explanation that late Abhidhamma followers use to explain doing vipassana while in jhāna

 Here, Robert K is a long time follower of Abhidhamma.


Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by robertk » 

BrokenBones wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:08 amAnd what on earth was Sariputta doing by being mindful throughout all those ambulance jhanas?

Metta
The rare types of arahat with all abhiññā have such skill in jhana that they can leave and enter very quickly - and so Sariputta was able to have insight into the factors of each jhana immediately after leaving.


Frankk's response

This  misunderstanding comes from not studying MN 111 (among many other related suttas) carefully.

Notice the perception attainments (first 4 jhanas and first 3 formless attainments), Sariputta is using the standard jhana and arupa formulas. It only shows him "entering and remaining" (upasampajja viharati) without "emerging".

Only in the 8th and 9th attainment, then it pointedly says sariputta could not do vipassana while in those attainments, he had to first 'emerge' (vutthahati) and then examine the experience.

(all of these links jump directly to that part of the sutta so you can confirm yourself)

MN 111


For example, in attainment #8:

♦ 95. “puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, sāriputto sabbaso ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ samatikkamma nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharati.
“And further, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sāriputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.
so tāya samāpattiyā sato vuṭṭhahati.
He emerged mindfully from that attainment.
so tāya samāpattiyā sato vuṭṭhahitvā
On emerging mindfully from that attainment,
ye dhammā VAR atītā niruddhā vipariṇatā te dhamme samanupassati —
he regarded the past dharma-[phenomena] that had ceased & changed:

(vipassana while in jhāna refrain)

‘evaṃ kirame dhammā
‘So this is how these dharma-[phenomena],
ahutvā sambhonti,
not having been, come into play.
hutvā paṭiventī’ti.
Having been, they vanish.’
so tesu dhammesu anupāyo anapāyo
He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those dharma-[phenomena],
anissito appaṭibaddho VAR vippamutto visaṃyutto
independent, detached, released, dissociated,
vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharati.
with an awareness rid of barriers.
so ‘atthi uttari nissaraṇan’ti pajānāti.
He discerned that ‘There is a further escape,’
tabbahulīkārā atthitvevassa VAR hoti.
and pursuing it, he confirmed that ‘There is.’


Whereas in the first 7 perception attainments, it doesn't contain those statements highlighted where he "emerges" before doing vipassana.

There is also AN 9.36, where the same kind of 'emerging' doesn't happen until after the first 7 perception attainments, and Sariputta is not involved, it's referring to any jhana meditator.

And then there is the ubiquitous S&S🐘💭: sati & sampajāno

    that appears everywhere, in basic samma sati "mindfulness" formula, as well as third jhana, see especially AN 4.41 which explicitly puts the context in jhana samadhi, where one clearly knows in real time as they're happening,  vedana, sañña, vitakka (feelings, perceptions, thoughts) as they arise, as they fall. 

    I'm curious to see how Robert K. responds. A rational person would start questioning their belief in later Buddhist texts, even canonical text like Abhidhamma, as well as their teachers who peddle misinformation like this. But most die hard religious zealots find a way to continue clinging to irrational interpretations with no evidence. Here's hoping Robert K and so many others like him listen to that glimmer in their conscience and reason and start asking the hard questions.



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