DN 2 concise proof that rūpa and kāya is the meditator's physical body in four jhānas, tie in to 8 vimokkha and 8 abhibhayatana

    DN 2¹⁰⁰ – frankk commentary        DN 2^100.1 - 4 jhānas explicitly integrated into samādhi-sam-bojjhaṇga of 7 awakening factors            DN 2^100.1.1 – that 7sb 4jhāna model appears in up to half of all suttas in DN        DN 2^100.2 – There are 8 knowledges instead of the normal 6 abhiñña!            DN 2^100.2.1 – why? To unequivocally gloss the body (rūpa & kāya) as physical.        DN 2^100.3 – Tie in with 8 abhi-bha-ayatana and 8 vimokkha            DN 2^100.3.1 – showing that mind made body is also physical rūpa kāya

 

100.2 – There are 8 knowledges instead of the normal 6 abhiñña!

DN 2^4.3.3 - The Eight Knowledges (instead of standard 6!)

100.2.1 – why? To unequivocally gloss the body (rūpa & kāya) as physical.

These two extra knowledges were specially composed by EBT Thera (elders) to gloss kāya and rūpa and unequivocally establish them as the the meditator's physical body, in contrast to VRJ👻🥶 and LBT Theravada redefining jhāna, kāya, and rūpa.These two passages clearly establish kāya and rūpa as the physical body perceived from imperturbable 4th jhāna j4🌕 āneñja⚡ .DN 2^4.3.3.1 - Clear-seeing & Knowledge (discern 4 elements) ↔ string of colored beads(simile for knowledge and vision) is a reference to 8 abhi-bh-āyatanaDN 2^4.3.3.2 - Mind-Made Body - the extra body is also rūpa of 4 elements, not just 'vision' or 'sight'

100.3 – Tie in with 8 abhi-bha-ayatana and 8 vimokkha

(details on 8 abhi-bh-āyatana and 8 vimokkha ️)Sujato translating rūpa in those two contexts as ‘sight/vision’ for rūpa is wrong.

100.3.1 – showing that mind made body is also physical rūpa kāya

Fortune favors the virtuous ^1.5.3 – American wanting to become monk in ThailandThe deva must manifest a physical body, not just a ‘vision/sight’ rūpa, to unlock a special access area of temple for the visiting American monk, turn on lights inside, etc.Fortune favors the virtuous ^1.5.4 – Ajahn Chob (senior disciple of Ajahn Mun) has food offered by deva when starving to deathThe deva in that story offered physical food to Ajahn Chob to keep him from starving to death, not just a rūpa ‘vision/sight’ of food.Fortune favors the virtuous ^1.5.5 – Ajahn Chah attacked by pack of wild dogs, mind made body of Ajahn Mun intervenesThe mind made rūpa of Ajahn Mun carrying the torch must have been sufficiently physical enough to scare off the pack of dogs about to attack Ajahn Chah.

Forum discussion

https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comments/v9fp10/sujato_translating_r%C5%ABpa_as_visionsight_in_many/ic7e53x/?context=3

I'm struggling to understand what the controversy is. Are you certain there is any controversy at all?

frankk response: 

When you see 'visions', that can be CGI hollywood movies, it can be hallucinations that even novice meditators see with their eyes closed. What the Buddha is referring to with rūpa in the 8 vimokkha and 8 abhibhayatana are the rūpa of living, sentient beings with sense faculties that one can interact with live. They're real, they're there, they're not just 'visions.' If you look at the sequencing of AN 8.63 and the 4 following suttas, it's crystal clear the Buddha is referring to rupa being the nama rūpa real living bodies of devas that are seen, not 'visions' which may or may not be real. And this ability to see devas in other realms, hell beings, 31 parts of the body in real time, is dependent on imperturbable 4th jhāna and strong luminosity day and night, not a common ability for even expert monks and meditators.

It wouldn't be called a liberation (vimokkha) if it was the pedestrian ordinary meditator hallucination or breath nimitta 'vision'.

The real issue is Brahm and visuddhimagga try to ambiguate both kāya and rūpa into visual kasinas for their redefined jhāna.