AN 11.2 pīti and vitakka (verbal thoughts of first jhāna) are intentionally produced to lubricate the mind with joy as needed
There's a frequent misunderstanding of how AN 11.2 works, and where it fits into the holistic training of the noble eightfold path, largely due to heterodox teachings of the redefined jhāna in Visuddhimagga based meditation methods.
AN 11.2: https://lucid24.org/an/an11/an11-v01/index.html#s2
Jack19990101 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:56 amI think Piti is the sign if we are ready to practice Jhana.
I don't think Piti is curated by techniques. I think it is by insight & wisdom, by sati.
The practice would be sati. Maybe after a long cumulation of meditation, Piti would declare its arrival, or make itself obvious. As to the amount of cumulation, hard to tell but I would guess the unit is kh.
In general and imo - Piti is the lack of earth element. Or at least dramatic reduction of sensitivity to earth element.
frank k wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 3:28 amRather than going by what you think, why not read the suttas and see how the Buddha describes how pīti is volitionally produced by right types of thinking generated from samma sankappa and the vitakka and vicara of first jhana?
https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/4piti/book/index.html
Also see SN 47.10, and a ton of sutta references here how vitakka and vicara are used to generate pīti
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/smd1/index.html
Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there
Post by frank k » Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:43 am
What AN 11.2 is describing is that the 7 awakening factors, when practiced well, will automatically produce partial jhāna all the time, in all postures without a need for a volition to enter jhāna or generate pīti or sukha.
The post I was responding to, is likely based on erroneous LBT Theravada ideas that one should stare at a kasina if one hopes for pīti to arise, and not think verbal thoughts at all because thoughts are antithetical to first jhāna (of heterodox redefined jhāna). This kind of teaching is totally against the holistic and gradual way jhāna is developed in the EBT (early buddhist teachings).
Before the type of result from AN 11.2 can be expected, the beginner's untrained mind starts off in the state of not being able to control thoughts. The mind is just running wildly. (see MN 18)
So the essential skill to develop for developing first jhāna. see the next sutta MN 19. One learns to replace and prevent wrong thoughts, and always have 3 categories of right thoughts instead. ONe doensn't just shut the mind down, stare at a kasina, hope the body disappears and enters a frozen stupor. That's not the Buddha's way, that's some twisted non Buddhist method of training the mind that divorces samatha and vipassana.
MN 19 instructs further that to fulfill the passadhi/pacification awakening factor, to properly enter first jhāna, one has to also have bodily pacification and mental pacification. Learning to replace wrong thoughts with good ones takes care of most of the mental pacification, but one more step there is to slow down and calm the thoughts so that they're not too intense, otherwise that disturbs the body and prevents bodily passaddhi.
When both body are mind are pacified with right thoughts on Dhamma, then you have overlap with AN 11.2.
The next sutta, MN 20 gives you a few more tools to deal with how to progress beyond first jhāna. Again, the skill has to do with training the mind to master thoughts, to (verbally) think what one wants to think, and not think what one doesn't want to. It's not about becoming a master of staring at kasinas and turning your brain off to go into a frozen disembodied stupor. The gradual development of the 4 jhānas is holistic and integrated with the noble eightfold path. One learns to progress beyond higher jhānas by deepening the seeing of dukkha, seeing the danger of wrong thoughts. Not to trust cult leaders, stare at kasinas and shut your brain off. That kind of approach does not deepen understanding and seeing of dukkha, and only provides an escapist temporary vacation from dukkha if one has the samatha kung fu to do that. But once one leaves a frozen disembodied stupor, your existential problems are still there waiting to attack.
Along with MN 20, there are SN 47.10, and many other suttas as I linked in the references quoted that show how vitakka and vicāra are verbal thoughts of first jhāna that one actively trains as a holistic integrated part of noble eightfold path to think beneficial thoughts related to Dhamma, to deepen seeing of dukkha, and to generate pīti, rapture, a mental factor, as needed when one needs to lubricate the mind with joy.
Pīti, unlike the wrong teachings of LBT theravada kasina samatha to enter frozen disembodied stupor, is mentally produced, produced intentionally by using subverbal or verbal thoughts that generate mental joy that delights in Dhamma related themes. When third jhāna or higher becomes one's default state, then one does not need to rely on vitakka and pīti, and AN 11.2 would be more accurately describing this situation. But you need to walk before you can run, you and you need to stand up before you can walk.
AN 11.2: https://lucid24.org/an/an11/an11-v01/index.html#s2
Jack19990101 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:56 amI think Piti is the sign if we are ready to practice Jhana.
I don't think Piti is curated by techniques. I think it is by insight & wisdom, by sati.
The practice would be sati. Maybe after a long cumulation of meditation, Piti would declare its arrival, or make itself obvious. As to the amount of cumulation, hard to tell but I would guess the unit is kh.
In general and imo - Piti is the lack of earth element. Or at least dramatic reduction of sensitivity to earth element.
frank k wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 3:28 amRather than going by what you think, why not read the suttas and see how the Buddha describes how pīti is volitionally produced by right types of thinking generated from samma sankappa and the vitakka and vicara of first jhana?
https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/4piti/book/index.html
Also see SN 47.10, and a ton of sutta references here how vitakka and vicara are used to generate pīti
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/smd1/index.html
Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there
Post by frank k » Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:43 am
What AN 11.2 is describing is that the 7 awakening factors, when practiced well, will automatically produce partial jhāna all the time, in all postures without a need for a volition to enter jhāna or generate pīti or sukha.
The post I was responding to, is likely based on erroneous LBT Theravada ideas that one should stare at a kasina if one hopes for pīti to arise, and not think verbal thoughts at all because thoughts are antithetical to first jhāna (of heterodox redefined jhāna). This kind of teaching is totally against the holistic and gradual way jhāna is developed in the EBT (early buddhist teachings).
Before the type of result from AN 11.2 can be expected, the beginner's untrained mind starts off in the state of not being able to control thoughts. The mind is just running wildly. (see MN 18)
So the essential skill to develop for developing first jhāna. see the next sutta MN 19. One learns to replace and prevent wrong thoughts, and always have 3 categories of right thoughts instead. ONe doensn't just shut the mind down, stare at a kasina, hope the body disappears and enters a frozen stupor. That's not the Buddha's way, that's some twisted non Buddhist method of training the mind that divorces samatha and vipassana.
MN 19 instructs further that to fulfill the passadhi/pacification awakening factor, to properly enter first jhāna, one has to also have bodily pacification and mental pacification. Learning to replace wrong thoughts with good ones takes care of most of the mental pacification, but one more step there is to slow down and calm the thoughts so that they're not too intense, otherwise that disturbs the body and prevents bodily passaddhi.
When both body are mind are pacified with right thoughts on Dhamma, then you have overlap with AN 11.2.
The next sutta, MN 20 gives you a few more tools to deal with how to progress beyond first jhāna. Again, the skill has to do with training the mind to master thoughts, to (verbally) think what one wants to think, and not think what one doesn't want to. It's not about becoming a master of staring at kasinas and turning your brain off to go into a frozen disembodied stupor. The gradual development of the 4 jhānas is holistic and integrated with the noble eightfold path. One learns to progress beyond higher jhānas by deepening the seeing of dukkha, seeing the danger of wrong thoughts. Not to trust cult leaders, stare at kasinas and shut your brain off. That kind of approach does not deepen understanding and seeing of dukkha, and only provides an escapist temporary vacation from dukkha if one has the samatha kung fu to do that. But once one leaves a frozen disembodied stupor, your existential problems are still there waiting to attack.
Along with MN 20, there are SN 47.10, and many other suttas as I linked in the references quoted that show how vitakka and vicāra are verbal thoughts of first jhāna that one actively trains as a holistic integrated part of noble eightfold path to think beneficial thoughts related to Dhamma, to deepen seeing of dukkha, and to generate pīti, rapture, a mental factor, as needed when one needs to lubricate the mind with joy.
Pīti, unlike the wrong teachings of LBT theravada kasina samatha to enter frozen disembodied stupor, is mentally produced, produced intentionally by using subverbal or verbal thoughts that generate mental joy that delights in Dhamma related themes. When third jhāna or higher becomes one's default state, then one does not need to rely on vitakka and pīti, and AN 11.2 would be more accurately describing this situation. But you need to walk before you can run, you and you need to stand up before you can walk.
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