collection of notes on AN 10.72 thorns (hearing sound in all 4 jhānas)

 

Translation title

Long Discourses

Translation subtitle

[Supposedly!] A faithful translation of the Dīgha Nikāya

Translator

Bhikkhu Sujato

DN 21: Sakkapañhasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato

(adjust the viewing preference to show his translation notes)

Then Sakka addressed the centaur Pañcasikha,“My dear Pañcasikha, it is hard for one like me to get near the Realized Ones while they are on retreat practicing absorption, enjoying absorption.We will learn later of how Sakka’s appearance could be too disturbing for the Buddha while on retreat (DN 21:1.10.13). Pañcasikha, on the other hand, would appear alone, without a retinue. Note, however, that on subsequent occasions Sakka showed no such reticence, either because he was already a stream-enterer or because the Buddha was not in solitary retreat.

Atha kho sakko devānamindo pañcasikhaṁ gandhabbadevaputtaṁ āmantesi:“durupasaṅkamā kho, tāta pañcasikha, tathāgatā mādisena, jhāyī jhānaratā, tadantaraṁ paṭisallīnā.

Frank comment: 
Sujato translates jhāna as "absorption" - the pali says the jhāna-meditator is enjoying jhāna
Sujato makes no mention of how the Buddha was able to hear the musician while he was in jhāna.

sujato footnote:
If Pañcasikha was seeking the Buddha’s approval for his love-match, he was doomed to disappointment, as the Buddha and his mendicants do not involve themselves in arranging marriages. The Buddha sidesteps the issue by politely complementing Pañcasikha on his musicianship.

Later, when Sakka is concerned the loud sounds of his chariot might pull the Buddha out of Jhāna:

When I said this, she said to me,‘It’s the wrong time to see the Buddha,as he’s in retreat.’

‘Well then, sister, please convey my message when the Buddha emerges from that immersion ("samādhi", not jhāna in pali here).’I hope that sister bowed to you?Do you remember what she said?”

“She did bow, lord of gods, and I remember what she said.I also remember that it was the sound of your chariot wheels that pulled me out of that immersion.”Sakka pointedly ignores this, but perhaps his shame at disturbing the Buddha’s meditation explains his oblique method of gaining an audience.

Frankk comment:

Sujato must be breathing a sigh of relief here,

because the pali text says samādhi, not jhāna,

so Sujato can claim this is some kind of samādhi that is somehow below 1st jhāna.

But we know from AN 10.72, that sound is a thorn for all four jhānas,

and not a thorn for the four formless attainments (omitted from list of 10 thorns),

so this samādhi must be referring to one of the four jhānas.

And we know that the buddha was explicitly in jhāna above when he was 

hearing, thinking about the musician's performance. 

The Buddha even went out of his way to use the same exact situatione as AN 10.72,

the loud sounds of chariots disturbing the four jhānas of distinguished skilled meditators!

No comment from Sujato on how the Buddha must have ended that

disembodied formless stupor of a redefined heretical jhāna that Sujato believes in,

and somehow the musician just had fortuitous timing to 

catch the Buddha just as he happened to exit the fake Sujato Jhāna.

That's why no translation notes from Sujato in that first section of hearing music in jhāna.

Now in the section on meditation on vedana ("feelings" is how most people translate that term),

‘When I cultivate this kind of happiness, unskillful qualities grow, and skillful qualities decline.’ You should not cultivate that kind of happiness.Whereas, should you know of a happiness:‘When I cultivate this kind of happiness, unskillful qualities decline, and skillful qualities grow.’ You should cultivate that kind of happiness.And that which is free of placing the mind and keeping it connected is better than that which still involves placing the mind and keeping it connected.That is, second jhāna is better than first jhāna.That’s why I said there are two kinds of happiness.

Why did I say that there are two kinds of sadness?Well, should you know of a sadness:‘When I cultivate this kind of sadness, unskillful qualities grow, and skillful qualities decline.’ You should not cultivate that kind of sadness.Whereas, should you know of a sadness:‘When I cultivate this kind of sadness, unskillful qualities decline, and skillful qualities grow.’ You should cultivate that kind of sadness.Overwhelmingly, the suttas speak of happiness in the path to liberation. They do, however, also acknowledge that sometimes temporary states of sadness leading to disillusionment can spur a person on the path.And that which is free of placing the mind and keeping it connected is better than that which still involves placing the mind and keeping it connected.It is hard to know what the text is getting at here, as there is no “sadness” in any jhāna.That’s why I said there are two kinds of sadness.

frankk:

Those are sujato's translation and notes above.

That section does not mention the word "jhāna",

yet here, Sujato somehow knows it must be referring to 1st, 2nd, 3rd jhāna.

Somehow, when it's convenient for him, he knows when samādhi must be referring to a jhāna.

But when the word samādhi or jhāna appears in the pāḷi source to contradict his heretical understanding of jhāna,

then that samādhi is just some kind of access immersion below jhāna,

and the word jhāna just means "meditation in general", not the four jhānas.

But the key point here, is Sujato translated the entire sutta from pali, 

and years later, revisited and added translation notes.

Both times he somehow didn't notice that the sutta goes out of its way to 

explicitly say that you can hear music, sounds, in samādhi,

and not just any old samādhi, the four jhānas.

Very explicit, clear, blindingly obvious what the Buddha and Theras who composed the sutta were doing.

A bhikkhu with integrity, when asked about how DN 21 contradicts the heretical view of jhāna as a disembodied frozen stupor where it's impossible to feel mosquito bites and hear sounds,

would face the challenge head on and try to come up with some explanation.

What does it say about a translator's conviction in their heretical view when they deliberately avoid trying to explain it?

Does it sound like they really believe their own view?

Are they worried if they try to explain it with sophistry people are going to call them out on it?

You can try to ban, block, censor all of your followers who ask you to justify your views,

but eventually truth will prevail.

Or the Dhamma dies.

Unlike Sujato, I go completely the opposite way,

 in adding helpful notes and html bookmarks showing exactly where hearing sounds in a full body sense activated  jhāna and samādhi are happening.

So you can see the pali source yourself, see for yourself what you can do in a genuine Jhāna.

(click title bar to open TOC table)

DN 21 Sakka-pañha: Sakka’s Questions

• 21.0 - (Sakka doesn’t want to disturb Buddha’s jhāna)
  • 21.0.1 - (fire burning is also called ‘jhāna’)
  • 21.0.2 - (Sakka convinces musician to pull Buddha out of jhāna retreat with poem)
• 21.1 – Pañcasikha-gīta-gāthā: Pañcasikha’s Song
  • (verse)
  • (end of verse)
• 21.2 – Sakk’-ūpasaṅkama: The Approach of Sakka
  • 21.2.0.1 - (Sakka visits Buddha but sees him in ‘samādhi’)
  • 21.2.0.2 - (Lady requests vistors including Sakka to not disturb Buddha’s meditation)
  • 21.2.0.3 - (sound of Sakka’s chariot pulls Buddha out of ‘samādhi’)
• 21.2.1 – Gopaka-vatthu: The Story of laywoman reborn to higher deva realm than monks
  • 21.2.1.1 - (scolded by laywoman, deva remember life as monk)
    • (verse)
    • (end of verse)
    • (verse)
    • (end of verse)
  • 21.2.1.2 - (Sakka Q1: what fetters bind the gods, humans, demons, dragons? Envy and stinginess )
  • 21.2.1.3 - (Sakka Q2: what is the source of envy? The liked and disliked )
  • 21.2.1.4 - (Sakka Q3: what is source of liked and disliked? Desire/chanda )
  • 21.2.1.5 - (Sakka Q4: what is source of desire? Thought )
  • 21.2.1.6 - (Sakka Q5: what is source of thought? Identity and proliferation of perceptions )
  • 21.2.1.7 - (Sakka Q6: how to cease identity and proliferations of perceptions? Meditation on sensations)
• 2.2 – Vedanā-kammaṭṭhāna: Meditation on sensations
  • 21.2.2.1 - (two kinds of mental joy – ones that cause skillful Dharmas to increase, ones that don’t)
  • 21.2.2.2 - (pīti and pamojja are the mental joy, 2nd jhāna is better than 1st jhāna)
  • 21.2.2.3 - (two kinds of mental distress – ones that cause skillful Dharmas to increase, ones that don’t)
  • 21.2.2.4 - (could be referring to asubha here, 2nd jhāna is better than 1st jhāna)
  • 21.2.2.5 - (two kinds of equanimous-observation – ones that cause skillful Dharmas to increase, ones that don’t)
  • 21.2.2.6 - (upekkha of 2nd jhāna and higher is better than 1st jhāna)
• 21.2.3 – Pātimokkha-saṃvara: Restraint in the Monastic Code
  • 21.2.3.1 - (two kinds of bodily behavior – ones that cause skillful Dharmas to increase, ones that don’t)
  • 21.2.3.2 - (two kinds of vocal behavior – ones that cause skillful Dharmas to increase, ones that don’t)
  • 21.2.3.3 - (two kinds of search – ones that cause skillful Dharmas to increase, ones that don’t)
• 21.2.4 – Indriya-saṃvara: Sense Restraint
  • 21.2.4.1 - (Buddha explains two kinds of guarding 6 sense doors – in brief)
  • 21.2.4.2 - (Sakka expands in detail two kinds of guarding 6 sense doors – those that increase skillful Dharmas, those that don’t)
  • 21.2.4.3 – (do all ascetics and brahmins have the same doctrine, ethics, desires, and attachments?)
  • 21.2.4.4 – (have all ascetics and brahmins reached the ultimate end?)
  • 21.2.4.5 – (sakka asked many teachers: Passion, a disease...drags a person to be reborn)
• 21.2.5 – Somanassa-paṭilābha-kathā: On Feeling Happy
  • 21.2.5.1 - (6 reasons Sakka is happy involve stream enterer only having a few more lives left)
    • (verse)
    • (end of verse)
  • 21.2.5.2 - (Sakka gave musician promotion, and 80,000 devas become stream enterers)

(2022 SP-FLUENT translation by frankk‍ derived from B. Sujato‍ 2018/12)

collection of notes on AN 10.72 thorns (hearing sound in all 4 jhānas)

I can't wait to see how Sujato tries to obfuscate and equivocate when his sutta translation notes from AN 10.72 come around.