MN 61, question about asymmetry of bad mental action in matrix

 This is a question I asked Ven. Thanissaro, regarding MN 61, the mental portion having differences with the body and verbal.

     MN 61⁰ (intro)
        MN 61^0.1 (lying is bad; simile of empty water container)
        MN 61^0.2 (lying is bad; simile royal elephant risking life)
        MN 61^0.3 (Never lie! Lying leads to every evil)
        MN 61^0.4 (simile of miror: reflect before, during, after every action )
    MN 61¹ (mirror body action, kāyena kammaṃ )
        MN 61^1.1.1 (before Body action → consider consequence)
        MN 61^1.1.2 (before Body action → if leads to bad, don’t do)
        MN 61^1.1.3 (before Body action → if not lead to bad, do)
        MN 61^1.2.1 (during Body action → consider consequence)
        MN 61^1.2.2 (during Body action → if leads to bad, don’t do)
        MN 61^1.2.3 (during Body action → if not lead to bad, do)
        MN 61^1.3.1 (after Body action → consider consequence)
        MN 61^1.3.2 (after Body action → if it led to bad, confess and don’t do again)
        MN 61^1.3.3 (after Body action → if not lead to bad, rejoice pīti-pāmojja)
    MN 61² (mirror verbal action, vācāya kammaṃ)
        MN 61^2.1.1 (before Vocal action → consider consequence)
        MN 61^2.1.2 (before Vocal action → if leads to bad, don’t do)
        MN 61^2.1.3 (before Vocal action → if not lead to bad, do)
        MN 61^2.2.1 (during Vocal action → consider consequence)
        MN 61^2.2.2 (during Vocal action → if leads to bad, don’t do)
        MN 61^2.2.3 (during Vocal action → if not lead to bad, do)
        MN 61^2.3.1 (after Vocal action → consider consequence)
        MN 61^2.3.2 (after Vocal action → if it led to bad, confess and don’t do again)
        MN 61^2.3.3 (after Vocal action → if not lead to bad, rejoice pīti-pāmojja)
    MN 61³ (mirror mental action, manasā kammaṃ)
        MN 61^3.1.1 (before Mental action → consider consequence)
        MN 61^3.1.2 (before Mental action → if leads to bad, don’t do)
        MN 61^3.1.3 (before Mental action → if not lead to bad, do)
        MN 61^3.2.1 (during Mental action → consider consequence)
        MN 61^3.2.2 (during Mental action → if leads to bad, don’t do)
        MN 61^3.2.3 (during Mental action → if not lead to bad, do)
        MN 61^3.3.1 (after Mental action → consider consequence)
        MN 61^3.3.2 (after Mental action → if it led to bad, feel disgusted, horrified, and restrain yourself in future)
        MN 61^3.3.3 (after Mental action → if not lead to bad, rejoice pīti-pāmojja)
    MN 61⁵ (conclusion: all ascetics, brahmins, of past, future, present used this mirror method)
        MN 61^5.1 (Rāhula should also use mirror reflect method)

question

I have a question about the mental action, the part reflecting after one does a bad mental action.

The rest of the matrix seems to be consistent across body, verbal, mental, but this one part seems to be the only asymmetry.

Instead of confessing doing bad action to senior monks, it has a different directive than the body and vocal counterparts.

Sace kho tvaṃ, rāhula, paccavekkhamāno evaṃ jāneyyāsi:	If, while reflecting in this way, you know:
‘yaṃ kho ahaṃ idaṃ manasā kammaṃ akāsiṃ idaṃ me manokammaṃ attabyābādhāyapi saṃvattati, parabyābādhāyapi saṃvattati, ubhayabyābādhāyapi saṃvattati—	‘This act of mind that I have done leads to hurting myself, hurting others, or hurting both.
akusalaṃ idaṃ manokammaṃ dukkhudrayaṃ dukkhavipākan’ti, evarūpaṃ pana te, rāhula, manokammaṃ aṭṭīyitabbaṃ harāyitabbaṃ jigucchitabbaṃ;	It’s unskillful, with suffering as its outcome and result.’ Then, Rāhula, you should be horrified, repelled, and disgusted by that deed.
aṭṭīyitvā harāyitvā jigucchitvā āyatiṃ saṃvaraṃ āpajjitabbaṃ.	And being repelled, you should restrain yourself in future.

I understand one wouldn't confess bad mental actions to elders, since it would be impractical, time consuming, and not actually violating vinaya rules.

1. But other than someone who has very strong psychic powers, who can harm another being with a mere mental act, what is the pedestrian version of a wrong mental action successfully completed that led to harm of others?

2. and if someone with psychic powers harmed another being in some way tangibly, then shouldn't that require a confession?

3. Could you give several examples that show an ordinary monk without psychic powers successfully completing bad mental actions that led to harming others?

It seems like what the sutta might actually mean, is that if one detects an unskillful mental action, one should feel disgusted and horrified. It's hard to imagine one being so swift and powerful in samadhi that they can do all of those checks before a mental action, and during a mental action.

In other words, it seems like the matrix pattern is simply including the mental part without expecting ordinary monks to realistically carry it out exactly as specified for the mental portion of the matrix.

Ven. Ṭhānissaro's response

About the mental act: aside from cases of psychic powers, I think what the Buddha is getting at is when you’ve performed a bodily or verbal act that harmed someone else, you should reflect further back to see if that act was motivated by an unskillful mental act. The purpose of this is to dig down into the causes of the act within the mind, so that you can realize how the harm actually started with the mental acts leading up to the bodily or verbal act.


In a case like this, when you confess the bodily or verbal act to another monk, you would, of course, tell whether the act was intentional, but as for the mental acts that led up to the intention, those are for you to investigate yourself. There’s no need to draw the other monk into the murky psychological waters of your feelings about the other person, etc., unless you’re really having trouble figuring out how to get past a particular attitude. Once you’ve reflected on the internal sources of the harm, it will make you more inclined to be alert to them the next time they come up. This is how reflecting on your external actions leads ultimately to a realization that you have to uproot the sources of harm through meditation.


As for harmful acts of psychic power, in general the Vinaya doesn’t treat purely mental acts as offenses, with two exceptions: the rules dealing with killing human beings and other living beings. In both of those cases, the offense has to be confessed. In fact, if you kill a human being with an act of psychic power, you’re automatically not a monk.