why it matters: "noble disciple" vs. "disciple of the noble ones"

Re: jhana and cula-sotapanna

Post by frank k » Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:34 am

SDC wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 6:22 am...
Why did you define ariyasāvaka twice? Does it appear two different ways? Did you mean to distinguish between the sutavato ariyasāvaka (instructed noble disciple) and something else? Because as far as I know there is no such thing as a assutavā ariyasāvaka (uninstructed noble disciple), but simply ariyasāvaka (noble disciple) without the additional description of being sutavato (learned/instructed), but in no way implying they are unlearned.

defined twice because I cut and paste from formatted article, the first one is a heading.

It's not about ariya savaka themself being unlearned or not.
The 'sutava' /learned designation is to contrast with the asutava / unlearned ordinary person.

ariya savaka is a noble one's disciple, not a noble disciple.
Read the link I quoted earlier.
And if you're still not convinced, really read thorugh all the suttas and try it both ways.

The reason some people like me make a big fuss about this distinction, is becuase it makes a big difference in how you (anyone) reads and approaches the suttas.

When all the sutta places that say "noble disciple" does this, the reader thinks, "oh, this doesn't apply to me, it's what you do after you're a stream enterer and you're working on arahantship."

But when you see it says, "a disciple of the noble ones does this", you think, "okay, I need to do this."

It's like underprivileged minority kids reading instructions from privileged white folks on how to be successful. They just think, "oh, this doesn't apply to me."
But when it's written by someone who was underprivileged minority like themself, then they take the instruction seriously and try it out for themselves.

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