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2019 frankk shows how KN Pe supports correct EBT interpretation of vitakka, 2023 Sujato continues to misinterpret KN Pe

 


Frankk wrote this 4 years ago:

Wednesday, September 18, 2019

Comparison of Vism. and KN Pe confirms the crimes of Vism. in redefining Jhāna



in 2023, august 22,  Sujato continues to misinterpret KN Pe :

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/what-is-vitakka-and-vicara/3148/24

sujatoBhante
7d

The point of the sutta is to show that even wholesome thinking is an obstruction to jhana.

I know you’re just trying to understand the suttas, but ask yourself. Do you imagine that the sages of course renounced everything, leaving behind kingdoms and families to live in a cave in the mountains just so they could … sit and think? That this would be a state the Buddha would compare to Nibbana, and call it the “higher mind”?

To stop thinking is trivial. It’s not a sign of a deep meditation. I just hung out my washing and stopped thinking. A bit of mindfulness, stay sharp, and thoughts don’t come up. Deep meditation is waaaaaay beyond this.

Thanks for the reference, it’s a fascinating passage, and clearly a precursor for the Visuddhimagga definition of the same thing. I haven’t read this before, or I guess I have, but so long ago I forgot!

Anyway, it doesn’t really same anything about this issue. In terms of definition it just repeats the word vitakka so doesn’t clarify what vitakka is. Then there are a bunch of examples, which are of course illustrative metaphors not definitions.

The actual definition is brief, and it is not so much interested in saying what vitakka is as in differentiating it from vicāra. It’s important, when reading scripture, to not force it to answer the question that you want answered. You have to learn to listen to what it wants to say.

Tattha paṭhamābhinipāto vitakko, paṭiladdhassa vicaraṇaṁ vicāro
Therein vitakka is the first engagement, while vicāra is the exploration of what has been gained.

This is then illustrated with the similes, all of which show the difference between the first engagement or awareness of something and the continual engagement with it.






More on KN Pe vitakka and first jhāna that frankk wrote years ago


Sunday, August 25, 2019

V&V vitakka & vicara are vaci-sankhara (vocalization-co-doings), very close relationship with vaca/speech





Sunday, February 16, 2020

V&V (vitakka & vicara) simile of bird spreading wings corrupted by Vism.


another V&V bird simile corruption by Vism. with some images


Sunday, May 29, 2022

KN Pe section describing defects of four jhānas and formless attainments, show that kāya = physical body and rūpa = physical body




Sunday, November 29, 2020

KN Mil 3.3.13-14: KN: Milinda-pañha vitakka and vicara supports correct EBT definition of "directed-thought and evaluation"

This is regarding KN Mil, not KN Pe, but it's a great example of how the simile of bird flying can be interpreted with correct EBT vitakka & vicāra, or Vism's corrupted V&V redefinition. 

At least on a superficial level simile fits both. But when you examine the details a little more closely, then the Vism. simile falls apart.



Forum discussion


https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comments/164mjbw/2019_frankk_shows_how_kn_pe_supports_correct_ebt/





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