V&V vitakka & vicara are vaci-sankhara (vocalization-co-doings), very close relationship with vaca/speech

Vācā = vocalized speech

vaca is not 'mental talk', is not unspoken speech mentally recited.
vaca = voice/vocalization/spoken-speech. Same as latin vox, same as english voice, vocal, etc. It is not mental talk. It has to be spoken talk. Otherwise right-speech has no distinction with right thought, there would be no need to have 3fold classification of kaya/body misconduct, vaca/vocal misconduct, mano/mind misconduct, you could just reduce it down to 2. 

Vācā = voice, vocal-speech, relationship to V&V

Vācā = voice, vocal-speech, vocal, vocalization, vocalized-speech, vocalized-words, vocalized-communication, vocalized-language.
* vocalization of words and speech, spoken out loud words and speech.
* notice the indo-latin connection, vaca = voice = vox = vocalized-words
* auditory communication, vocalized-words that can be heard.
* vibrating the vocal cords & flapping the lips to communicate intelligible sound, usually in the form of a language
* Vācā is vocalized-speech, spoken words, not written speech, not mental speech, not unvoiced words. In many important contexts such as right-speech (sammā vācā), that's an important distinction. Otherwise guarding the speech to prevent bad karmic consequences of wrong vocalized-speech would not be necessary.
PED: Vācā (f.) [vac, vakti & vivakti; cp. vacaḥ (P. vaco); Vedic vāk (vāc˚) voice, word, vākya; Av. vacah & vaxs word Gr. e)/pos word, o)/y voice, Lat. vox=voice, voco to call
Bodhi SN 41.6
First one thinks and examines, then afterwards one breaks into speech; that is why thought and examination are the verbal formation
Thanissaro MN 44
Having first directed one’s thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech.
That’s why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications.

MN 44 definition of vaci-sankhara

♦ “kasmā panāyye, assāsapassāsā kāya-saṅkhāro,	“But why are in-&-out breaths bodily-fabrications?
kasmā vitakka-vicārā vacī-saṅkhāro,	Why are directed thought-&-evaluation vocal-speech-fabrications?
kasmā saññā ca vedanā ca citta-saṅkhāro”ti?	Why are perceptions & feelings mental-fabrications?”
...
pubbe kho, āvuso visākha,	prior to [vocalizing speech], friend Visakha,
vitakketvā vicāretvā	(one) directs-thoughts (and) evaluates [those very thoughts],
pacchā vācaṃ bhindati,	afterwards, vocal-speech breaks-out,
tasmā vitakka-vicārā vacī-saṅkhāro.	Therefore directed-thought-&-evaluation are vocal-speech-fabrications

KN Pe concisely expresses how V&V is silent mental recitation of words

http://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/cmy/kn-pe/index.html#calibre_link-18

yathā paliko tuṇhiko sajjhāyaṃ karoti evaṃ vitakko,	583. just-as (a) reciter silently recites, such (is) directed-thoughts,
yathā taṃyeva anupassati evaṃ vicāro.	just-as that-recitation (he) contemplates, such (is) evaluation.

SN 46.3 Sīla-sutta: Virtue

this is an oral tradition: which means you frequently have to recite the words in the form of vitakka and vicara, to refresh your memory and validate the fidelity of what you memorize, and preserve correct memory of it.

(0. 👂 Bhikkhūnaṃ dhammaṃ sutvā)	0. 👂 listen to Dhamma [teaching] from a monk [and memorize it]
(1. 🐘 Sati: taṃ Dhammaṃ anus-sarati anu-vitakketi)	1. 🐘 that Dhamma [teaching] (he) recollects and thinks about
(2. 💭 Dhamma-vicaya: taṃ dhammaṃ paññāya, pa-vicinati pa-vicarati pari-vīmaṃsam-āpajjati )	2. 💭 that Dhamma discerning; he discriminates, evaluates, investigates
(3. 🏹 Vīriya: āraddhaṃ hoti vīriyaṃ a-sallīnaṃ.)	3. 🏹 his aroused vigor is not-slackening
(4. 😁 Pīti: Āraddha-vīriyassa uppajjati pīti nir-āmisā,)	4. 😁 his aroused vigor leads to arising of rapture not-carnal (of jhana)
(5. 🌊 Passaddhi: Pīti-man-assa, kāyo-pi passambhati, cittam-pi passambhati )	5. 🌊 with enraptured-mind, his body becomes pacified, his mind becomes pacified
(6. 🌄 Samādhi: Passaddha-kāyassa sukhino, cittaṃ samādhiyati.)	6. 🌄 with pacified body, he is in pleasure, mind becomes undistractable and lucid.
(7. 👁 Upekkha: so tathā-samāhitaṃ cittaṃ, sādhukaṃ ajjh-upekkhitā hoti)	7. 👁 he of such undistractable & lucid mind, thoroughly looks-upon-it-with-equanimity
(7 types of fruits, Nirvana)	Seven different levels of awakening results from proper practice of 7sb.



Noble Silence and speech ceasing in first jhāna

STED ariyo vā tuṇhī-bhāvo

♦ āyasmā mahāmoggallāno etadavoca —	Ven. Mahā Moggallāna said,
“idha mayhaṃ, āvuso, rahogatassa paṭisallīnassa (<< that word closely linked with samadhi)	"Friends, once as I was withdrawn in seclusion,
evaṃ cetaso parivitakko udapādi —	this train of thought arose to my awareness,
‘ariyo tuṇhībhāvo, ariyo tuṇhībhāvoti vuccati.	'"Noble silence, noble silence," it is said.
katamo nu kho ariyo tuṇhībhāvo’ti?	But what is noble silence?'
tassa mayhaṃ āvuso, etadahosi —	Then the thought occurred to me,

SN 21.1 (V&V could not be visual nimitta here, clearly thinking and evaluation)

(STED second jhāna = noble silence)

‘idha bhikkhu vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā	'There is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations,
ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ	[1] enters & remains in the second jhāna:
cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ	rapture & pleasure born of concentration,
avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ	unification of awareness
samādhijaṃ pītisukhaṃ	free from directed thought & evaluation —
dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.	internal assurance.
ayaṃ vuccati ariyo tuṇhībhāvo’ti.	This is called noble silence.'

AN 5.73 V&V, upekkha, recitation, samatha, jhāna

AN 5.73 paṭhama-dhamma-vihārī
(1. Not Dhamma-dweller: no samatha, excessive dhamma-study)
(2. Not Dhamma-dweller: no samatha, excessive teaching-dhamma to others)
(3. Not Dhamma-dweller: no samatha, excessive recitation)
(4. Not Dhamma-dweller: no samatha, excessive V&V)
(5. Dhamma-dweller: has samatha, memorized dhamma but not too much V&V)
(conclusion: do jhāna!)

(4. Not Dhamma-dweller: no samatha, excessive V&V)

4. ♦ “puna caparaṃ, bhikkhu, bhikkhu	4. “Then there is the case where a monk
yathā-sutaṃ	takes the Dhamma as he has heard
yathā-pariyattaṃ dhammaṃ	& studied it
cetasā anu-vitakketi anu-vicāreti	and thinks about it, evaluates it,
manas-ān-upekkhati.	and examines it with his intellect.
so tehi dhamma-vitakkehi divasaṃ atināmeti,	He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking.
riñcati paṭisallānaṃ,	He neglects seclusion.
nānuyuñjati ajjhattaṃ ceto-samathaṃ.	He doesn’t commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness.
ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhu —	This is called
‘bhikkhu vitakka-bahulo,	a monk who is keen on thinking,
no dhammavihārī’”.	not one who dwells in the Dhamma.

Re: if you witness a crime

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Post by frank k » Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:06 am

suaimhneas wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:44 pm

Sure, there's a strong oral tradition and association between recitation and wholesome characteristics (or between mindfulness and being able to recall suttas, e.g. in SN46.55). But the quoted suttas talks about physical recitation and samadhi (not specifically jhana).

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... hara.html
V&V vitakka & vicara are vaci-sankhara (vocalization-co-doings), very close relationship with vaca/speech

look especially closely at SN 21.1 on noble silence.
there, 3 different vitakkas are expressed in just in that super short passage.

1. when one is in patisallana, that's nearly equivalent of saying one is in samadhi
quoted text iti here is explicitly called 'pari-vitakka'. So if moggallana is in samadhi, it's just a question if which whether you want to call it 4ip iddhipada (equivalent to 4th jhana), or he's in something beyond 1st jhana and 'downshifts' into first jhana to express that pari-vitakka of 'what is noble silence?'. Now as long as he doesn't disturb passadhi samobjjhanga (pacification awakening factor of 7sb), then it's definitely first jhana by MN 19 definition.

2. The second vitakka is not explicitly called vitakka like in case #1, but again its quoted iti text of the STED 2nd jhana formula, Dhamma instructions for doing 2nd jhana, in the form of quoted vitakka words. This happens frequently in the suttas, unquoted text being implicit vitakka. Quoted text sometimes could be subverbal (sañña and manasi karoti), but most of the time they are vitakka.

3. the third reference to vitakka, or lack of it, is from the explanation of the STED 2nd jhana formula that says vitakka & vicara from first jhana have been vupasaama'd, calmed to enter 2nd jhana. As I frequently like to to make this joke, if this was B. Sujato's Vitakka & vicara of 'placing the mind and keeping it connected', or Ajahn Brahm's 'first jhana wobble where the mind doesn't stay glued to the breath nimitta', then why would the Buddha not call first jhana noble silence? Is it because that first jhana wobble on the nimitta is making squeaky noises? So the Buddha is saying, "You guys, stop making all those damn squeaky noises and stick closely to that kasina already. You're driving me crazy with that noise!"