SN 36.11, MN 44 B. Sujato, as of august 2019 still refuses to correct his misinterpretation and mistranslation of vitakka & vicara
A Man looks at a woman, and then she becomes pregnant
But does she? Making eye contact may be one of the prerequisite conditions (you could argue blind men can still get women pregnant), but eye contact is not the cause of pregnancy.Similarly
If B. Sujato's understanding of vitakka & vicara are correct, then based on MN 44, anyone who is not comatose or dead, would randomly have coherent speech pop out of their mouth at any time without cause. In fact, even a brain damaged mute, should be able to vocalize speech because they "place their mind and keep it connected to some kind of thought process".
When is the last time, you were in samadhi, "placed your mind and kept it connected" to a white kasina with no thought, and suddenly coherent speech was vocalized?
This is so wrong on so many levels, and I questioned B. Sujato publicly on why he did this on suttacentral forum. He acknowledged what I said made sense, but would not or could not explain his reason for translating it that way. So we can only assume this is part of his agenda to support his misinterpretation and mistranslation of vitakka & vicara in first and second jhana, especially with reference to SN 36.11, where V&V cease in second jhana.
MN 44
(B. Sujato, as of august 2019 still refuses to correct his misinterpretation and mistranslation of vitakka & vicara)kÄyasaį¹ khÄro,
visÄkha, kÄyasaį¹ khÄro, vitakkavicÄrÄ
kÄyasaį¹ khÄro, kasmÄ vitakkavicÄrÄ vacÄ«saį¹ khÄro, kasmÄ saĆ±Ć±Ä ca vedanÄ ca cittasaį¹ khÄro”ti?
My translation, based on B. Thanissaro
(Fabrications: bodily, voice, mind)
♦ 463. “kati panÄyye, saį¹
khÄrÄ”ti?
| “Now, lady, what are-fabrications?” |
♦ “tayo-’me, Ävuso visÄkha, saį¹
khÄrÄ —
| “These three-fabrications, friend VisÄkha: |
kÄya-saį¹
khÄro, vacÄ«-saį¹
khÄro, citta-saį¹
khÄro”ti.
| bodily-fabrications, vocal-speech-fabrications, & mental-fabrications.” |
♦ “katamo panÄyye, kÄya-saį¹
khÄro,
| “But what are bodily-fabrications? |
katamo vacÄ«-saį¹
khÄro,
| What are vocal-speech-fabrications? |
katamo citta-saį¹
khÄro”ti?
| What are mental-fabrications?” |
♦ “assÄsa-passÄsÄ kho, Ävuso visÄkha, kÄya-saį¹
khÄro,
| “In-&-out-breaths are bodily-fabrications. |
vitakka-vicÄrÄ vacÄ«-saį¹
khÄro,
| Directed thought-&-evaluation are vocal-speech-fabrications. |
saĆ±Ć±Ä ca vedanÄ ca citta-saį¹
khÄro”ti.
| Perceptions & feelings are mental-fabrications.” |
♦ “kasmÄ panÄyye, assÄsapassÄsÄ kÄya-saį¹
khÄro,
| “But why are in-&-out breaths bodily-fabrications? |
kasmÄ vitakka-vicÄrÄ vacÄ«-saį¹
khÄro,
| Why are directed thought-&-evaluation vocal-speech-fabrications? |
kasmÄ saĆ±Ć±Ä ca vedanÄ ca citta-saį¹
khÄro”ti?
| Why are perceptions & feelings mental-fabrications?” |
♦ “assÄsa-passÄsÄ kho, Ävuso visÄkha, kÄyikÄ
| “In-&-out breaths, ***, (are) bodily; |
ete dhammÄ kÄyap-paį¹i-baddhÄ,
| these dhamma-[things] (are) bound-up-with-the-body, |
tasmÄ assÄsa-passÄsÄ kÄya-saį¹
khÄro.
| That’s why in-&-out breaths are bodily-fabrications. |
pubbe kho, Ävuso visÄkha,
| prior to [vocalizing speech], friend Visakha, |
vitakketvÄ vicÄretvÄ
| (one) directs-thoughts (and) evaluates [those very thoughts], |
pacchÄ vÄcaį¹ bhindati,
| afterwards, vocal-speech breaks-out, |
tasmÄ vitakka-vicÄrÄ vacÄ«-saį¹
khÄro.
| Therefore directed-thought-&-evaluation are vocal-speech-fabrications. |
saĆ±Ć±Ä ca vedanÄ ca cetasikÄ
| Perceptions & feelings are mental; |
ete dhammÄ cittap-paį¹i-baddhÄ,
| these dhamma-[things] (are) bound-up-with-the-mind. |
tasmÄ saĆ±Ć±Ä ca vedanÄ ca citta-saį¹
khÄro”ti.
| Therefore perceptions & feelings (are) mental-fabrications.” |
SN 36.11
(B. Sujato)
So after 1st jhana, one's mind is comatose or brain dead?
SN 36.11 frankk translation
(9 gradual nirodho/cessations)
atha kho pana, bhikkhu, mayÄ
| “And I have also {taught} |
anu-pubba-saį¹
khÄrÄnaį¹ nirodho akkhÄto.
| Step-by-step-co-doings cessation. |
(in 4 jhÄnas one can perceive rÅ«pa ✅ š¶)
1. paį¹hamaį¹ jhÄnaį¹ samÄpannassa
| 1. (with) first jhÄna attained, |
š«š£️š¬ vÄcÄ niruddhÄ hoti.
| š«š£️š¬ vocalization-of-speech has ceased. |
2. dutiyaį¹ jhÄnaį¹ samÄpannassa
| 2. (with) second jhÄna attained, |
š«(V&Vš) vitakka-vicÄrÄ niruddhÄ honti.
| š«(V&Vš) directed-thought-&-evaluation has ceased. |
3. tatiyaį¹ jhÄnaį¹ samÄpannassa
| 3. (with) third jhÄna attained, |
š«š pÄ«ti niruddhÄ hoti.
| š«š rapture has ceased. |
4. catutthaį¹ jhÄnaį¹ samÄpannassa
| 4. (with) fourth jhÄna attained, |
š«š¬️š¤ assÄsa-passÄsÄ niruddhÄ honti.
| š«š¬️š¤ in-breath-out-breath has ceased. |
(in a-rÅ«pa / form-less attainments, body š¶ perception disappears)
5. ÄkÄsÄ-naƱc-Äyatanaį¹ samÄpannassa
| 5. (with) space-infinitude-dimension attained, |
š«š¶ rÅ«pa-saĆ±Ć±Ä niruddhÄ hoti.
| š«š¶ forms-perception has ceased. |
The relationship between vaci-sankhara and vitakka & vicara
If you study MN 44 and SN 36.11 carefully, you'll see the relationship clearly and how it works with jhana, and the oral tradition.What B. Sujato is attempting to do, is retrofit MN 44, turn it into his own kind of Abhidharma to provide a re-definition of vitakka & vicara. It makes the sutta collection and jhanas completely incoherent.
Comments
Post a Comment