V&V fallacious logic: since 16APS breath meditation cuts off vitakka (thinking), therefore first jhana vitakka is different

Re: manasā dhammaṃ viññāya: b.sujato's translation is grievously wrong

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Post by frank k » Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:40 am

No, it's not two meanings. distractive thoughts and permissable thoughts are both 'thoughts'. In first jhana you have thoughts which are not distractive, they're nekhamma, abyapada, avihimsa sankappo/vitakka, such as "may you be happy", or "i will pervade my awareness of breath within the entire physical body". This is clearly explained in MN 19, MN 125, MN 78. What makes the vitakka outside first jhana different from inside (MN 19) is that intensity and frequency of vitakka is attenuated to not tire the body, and allow passadhi-sambojjhanga to take you into first jhana.

Volo wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:35 am

frank k wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:22 am

So here's the important point. Even though B. Bodhi personally believes in the Commentary and Vism. interpretation of V&V, he realized as an ethical translator, that V&V needs to be TRANSLATED with the same terms that are used for V&V outside of first jhana. If the Buddha had intended first jhana to have a different meaning than outside, then it's the Buddha's job to explain it in other suttas, it's not up to a translator to impose their own bias.

I was answering to another question, and recollected, that in AN 9.1 and AN 9.3 Buddha said:

Mindfulness of breathing should be developed to cut off thoughts.

ānāpānassati bhāvetabbā vitakkupacchedāya

If we accept that practice of ānāpānasati leads to the first jhāna, then vitakka in AN 9.1&3 is not the same as jhāna factor vitakka. So, we have two meanings of vitakka: distracting thoughts and jhāna factor. This is not unique for vitakka, we see multiple meanings for other words as well. Therefore using two words for translating it is justified.

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