AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?

The same vitakka (thought) that is a vaci-sankhara (vocalization of speech fabrication), expressed in these 8 linguistic verbal thoughts, are the same linguistic verbal thoughts that can occur in first jhana, and don't get sublimated until second jhana. 

That is, if you believe the Buddha, following his standard lexicon (dictionary) of meditation terms.

But if you believe the Buddha did not speak clearly,  and that we need the interpretation of specialists like Ajahn Brahm and B. Sujato, which also requires a different lexicon to make the sutta fit their redefined jhana, then you're going to have a really hard time making any sense of AN 8.30.

This is what I'm going to show

1. That it's worthwhile to give the Buddha a chance and actually try to read the sutta on his terms, and put it into practice, using his standard lexicon, to see if it actually works. In other words, if you put the sutta passage into actual practice, it should get you a taste of first jhana, at least for a micro second. 

2. those 8 thoughts decompose easily into subverbal perceptions (that can carry over into 2nd jhana and higher)

3. why Ajahn Brahm and Sujato's redefined 'vitakka'  and 'jhana' is so harmful to Buddhism. 

1. it's worthwhile to give the Buddha a chance

(my translation of AN 8.30 based on B. Thanissaro translation).

(buddha adds one more to 7 great vitakka)

♦ “sādhu sādhu, anuruddha!	“Good, Anuruddha, very good.
sādhu kho tvaṃ, anuruddha,	It’s good that you think
(yaṃ taṃ mahā-purisa-vitakkaṃ) vitakkesi —	these thoughts of a great person:
(1) ‘app'-icchassāyaṃ dhammo,	(1) ‘This Dhamma is for one of few-desires,
nāyaṃ dhammo mah'-icchassa;	not for one of many-desires.
(2) santuṭṭhassāyaṃ dhammo,	(2) This Dhamma is for one who is content,
nāyaṃ dhammo a-santuṭṭhassa;	not for one who is dis-content.
(3) pavivittassāyaṃ dhammo,	(3) This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive,
nāyaṃ dhammo saṅgaṇik-ārāmassa;	not for one who who delights-in-social-gathering.
(4) āraddha-vīriyassāyaṃ dhammo,	(4) This Dhamma is for one of aroused-vigor,
nāyaṃ dhammo kusītassa;	not for one who is lazy.
(5) upaṭṭhitas-satissāyaṃ dhammo,	(5) This Dhamma is for one who has established-mindfulness,
nāyaṃ dhammo muṭṭhas-satissa;	not for one of muddled-mindfulness.
(6) samāhitassāyaṃ dhammo,	(6) This Dhamma is for one who is concentrated,
nāyaṃ dhammo a-samāhitassa;	not for one who is un-concentrated.
(7) paññavato ayaṃ dhammo,	(7) This Dhamma is for one endowed with discernment,
nāyaṃ dhammo dup-paññassā’ti.	not for one of dubious-discernment.’
tena hi tvaṃ, anuruddha,	Now then, Anuruddha,
imam-pi aṭṭhamaṃ mahā-purisa-vitakkaṃ vitakkehi —	the eighth great-person's-thought (that one) thinks:
(8) ‘nip-papañc-ārāmassāyaṃ dhammo nip-papañca-ratino,	(8) ‘This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non-proliferation-[of-objectification],-1- who delights in non-proliferation,
n-āyaṃ dhammo papañc-ārāmassa papañca-ratino’”ti.	not-for-one who enjoys & delights in proliferation-[of-objectification].’

(8 great vitakka lead to 4j)

♦ “yato kho tvaṃ, anuruddha, ime aṭṭha mahāpurisavitakke vitakkessasi,	“Anuruddha, when you think these eight thoughts of a great person, then—
tato tvaṃ, anuruddha, yāvadeva VAR ākaṅkhissasi,	whenever you want—
vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharissasi.	quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, you will enter & remain in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation.
♦ “yato kho tvaṃ, anuruddha, ime aṭṭha mahāpurisavitakke vitakkessasi, tato tvaṃ, anuruddha, yāvadeva ākaṅkhissasi, vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharissasi.	When you think these eight thoughts of a great person, then—whenever you want—with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, you will enter & remain in the second jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation—internal assurance.

(and so on for all 4 jhanas)

2. those 8 thoughts decompose easily into subverbal perceptions (that can carry over into 2nd jhana and higher)

2a. a taste of first jhana

Try it out. Take any of those 8 thoughts, find one that applies to you, pick out one of those 8 Dharmic qualities that you possess.

Say those words from that sutta passage silently in your mind, that's vaci-sankhara, vocalization fabrication, the thoughts you think before you say them out loud. 

Since you possess that quality, you experience a mental joy or even rapture (pīti, rapture awakening factor).

With mental joy, it's easy to relax the body and mind (passaddhi awakening factor),

and a physical joy (endorphins, pleasure chemicals in the brain), sukha is generated and experienced in the body. 

With the body and mind comfortable, happy, free of 5 hindrances, it's easy to experience at least a micro second, or even several whole seconds of first jhana. There's a big difference between getting a micro second of jhana, and being able to think the thoughts you want to think and not think thoughts you don't want to think at any time (MN 20), to enter jhana at will and sustain it for 30 minutes, one hour, several hours, etc. But a micro second of jhana is still called jhana (See AN 1.53 for example). You're on the first jhana spectrum, you've got a taste, you know from personal experience what it is and what you're aiming for to develop this skill further. 

2b. taking it to second jhana and beyond

Using the same thought from (2a), for example, "I am easily contented", 

that mental recitation is vitakka.

If you explore that thought, for example, "I'm easily contented with simple food, sitting alone in a forest meditating", that's 'vicara', exploring the directed initial thought of the 'vitakka'. 

Doing that same kind of inquiry based on that directed thought, "I'm contented with just oatmeal, with no money,", etc. is the allowable range of thinking in first jhana. These thoughts are in line with Dharma, do not cause 5 hindrances to arise, and fuel the fire of first jhana with easily combustible material that cause mental and physical joy. 

What AN 8.63 is talking about, the samadhi with V&V (vitakka and vicara), the samadhi with some vicara but no vitakka, and the samadhi with no V&V, is simply first jhana, jhana 1.5, and second jhana (and 3rd, 4th).

Jhana #1.5, the jhana that contains no vitakka, and some vicara, in practical terms, is the process of decomposing the linguistic mental talk for first jhana, the V&V of first jhana, and simplifying it to the point where eventually you don't need mental talk at all to sustain your jhana. 

So an example of jhana #1.5 using the initial directed vitakka of "I am easily contented", might be something like, "I'm contented sitting here quietly."

Now here's the key to advancing to second jhana and higher. You don't need to keep repeating that phrase in your mind, "I'm contented sitting here quietly."

You've already had your attention (manasi karo) focused on that perception (sañña) of contentment sitting quietly, after you've silently recited that thought a few times you can let of of that mental talk and just sustain the perception on contentment. 

So V&V (vitakka and vicara) decompose in jhana #1.5, and then both V&V drop out in second jhana and higher. But you're not going into a mentally unaware frozen stupor. You're still carrying on lucid discerning of your meditation object, in the form of subverbal mental processing (cetana, sañña, manasi karo). Look it up in MN 111 and AN 9.36, you can carry out vipassana WHILE you're in the jhana, you don't have to emerge from jhana before you can do vipassana. 

part 2 conclusion:  

those 8 thoughts decompose easily into subverbal perceptions (that can carry over into 2nd jhana and higher).

Now do you get it? Is it so hard to believe that those 8 verbal thoughts of a great man can lead to first jhana? That the same vitakka of those 8 great thoughts, is the same vitakka of first jhana? 

You've done the exercise for yourself, you can see it's on the first jhana spectrum, even if it's just micro first jhana, or a low quality first jhana. It's still first jhana. Look up the standard formula.

secluded from sensual pleasures. Check. Secluded from unskill dharmas. Check. mental joy and physical joy from mental recitation of that thought. Check. You've entered and experienced a few micro seconds of first jhana. Look it up. That is all the Buddha is asking for for first jhana. He's not asking you to separate the mind from the body until after fourth jhana, and he's not asking you to stop verbal mental talk until second jhana and higher. Look it up. Read a trustworthy translation based on the Buddha's lexicon, not Sujato or Vism. 

3. why Ajahn Brahm and Sujato's redefined 'vitakka'  and 'jhana' is so harmful to Buddhism. 

(to be continued)

Related articles

AN 8.30 B. Sujato egregious mistranslation of vitakka (thinking) in 4 jhānas context, turns EBT jhana into Vism. LBT "jhana" frozen stupor

 

Forum Discussion 

Re: AN 8.30 maybe try having faith in the Buddha instead of Ajahn Brahm and Sujato?
by frank k » Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:42 am

Ontheway wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:10 am... It is a preliminary work for settling down mind before real meditation training.
...And that "real meditation training" has to use a consistent lexicon where vitakka means the same thing one sentence before, and the sentence within first jhana.

If you can't tell the difference between Vism., Tv Ab, and sutta, you should just stay on the sidelines without drawing conclusions.

Just food for thought, while you're standing on the sideline. Do you think you know more about sutta and Abhidhamma than Bhante Gunaratana for example? He ordained in his teens I believe, a Sri Lankan Bhikkhu culturally inheriting a trust and faith in Vism. and Abhidhamma. He had a photographic memory, studied the tipitaka, accepted the dogmatic belief that Sutta and abhidhamma didn't contradict, but after a few decades, and careful study, decided they do in fact contradict on jhana.

Details of that here:
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html

Do you have photographic memory? Do you think you studied the Abhidhamma and suttas more than he did? Do you think you somehow possess some special knowledge that he doesn't?
If not, you should be asking yourself, if people smarter and more experienced than me find that Suttas and Vism. have vastly different understanding of jhana, maybe they're on to something? At the very least, maybe I should read their analysis and try to understand their point of view?