Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Theravada Abhidhamma presents two arguments to claim that in the 4 jhanas, one can not hear sounds.

1. The first argument has two parts:

1a.  hearing sounds is not possible, because you also can not see, smell, touch, taste objects in jhana. 

1b. hearing sounds and the mind being singular (focused on jhana factors) would involve two parallel processes, which is impossible, since jhana is singular. 

2. The second argument is referring to AN 10.72 with sounds being thorns in first jhana. Ab passage claims this is impossible for sound to be a thorn in first jhana, since the other thorns mentioned in AN 10.72, such as vitakka as a thorn for second jhana, would mean it's possible to be in second jhana and peform vitakka (thinking verbally, linguistically). 

First, I'll show the Abhidhamma passage, then I'll demonstrate the fallacy of their arguments.

Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma book 5 seems to support VRJ.

	Tv Ab Kv 18.8
	https://suttacentral.net/pitaka/abhidhamma/pli-tv-ab
	Saddaṁsuṇātītikathā—Shwe Zan Aung, C.A.F. Rhys Davids
	Points of Controversy
	18.8 Of Hearing in Jhāna
♦ 823. samāpanno saddaṃ suṇātīti? āmantā.	Controverted Point: That one who has attained Jhāna hears sound.
samāpanno cakkhunā rūpaṃ passati ... pe ... sotena ... pe ... ghānena ... pe ... jivhāya ... pe ... kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṃ phusatīti? na hevaṃ vattabbe ... pe ....	Theravādin: If so, it must be equally allowed that he can also see, smell, taste and touch objects. This you deny …
♦ samāpanno saddaṃ suṇātīti? āmantā. sotaviññāṇasamaṅgī samāpannoti?	You must also allow that he enters Jhāna enjoying auditory consciousness.
na hevaṃ vattabbe. nanu samādhi manoviññāṇasamaṅgissāti?	You deny, for you agree that concentration arises in one who is enjoying mental objects as such?
āmantā. hañci samādhi manoviññāṇasamaṅgissa, no ca vata re vattabbe — “samāpanno saddaṃ suṇātī”ti.	But if you admit that anyone who is actually enjoying sounds hears sounds, and that concentration is the property of one who is actually enjoying mental objects as such,
♦ samādhi manoviññāṇasamaṅgissa, sotaviññāṇasamaṅgī saddaṃ suṇātīti? āmantā. hañci samādhi manoviññāṇasamaṅgissa, sotaviññāṇasamaṅgī saddaṃ suṇāti, no ca vata re vattabbe — “samāpanno saddaṃ suṇātī”ti. samādhi manoviññāṇasamaṅgissa, sotaviññāṇasamaṅgī saddaṃ suṇātīti? āmantā. dvinnaṃ phassānaṃ ... pe ... dvinnaṃ cittānaṃ samodhānaṃ hotīti? na hevaṃ vattabbe ... pe ....	you should not affirm that one in the concentration of Jhāna hears sounds. If you insist that he does, you have here two parallel mental procedures going on at the same time … .
♦ 824. na vattabbaṃ — “samāpanno saddaṃ suṇātī”ti? āmantā. nanu paṭhamassa jhānassa saddo kaṇṭako vutto bhagavatāti?	Pubbaseliya: But was it not said by the Exalted One that “Sound is a thorn for First Jhāna”?
āmantā.
hañci paṭhamassa jhānassa saddo kaṇṭako vutto bhagavatā, tena vata re vattabbe — “samāpanno saddaṃ suṇātī”ti.	Hence one in Jhāna can surely hear sound.
♦ 825. paṭhamassa jhānassa saddo kaṇṭako vutto bhagavatāti, samāpanno saddaṃ suṇātīti?	Theravādin: You say that one in Jhāna can hear sound, and quote the Word as to it being for First Jhāna a “thorn”.
āmantā. dutiyassa jhānassa vitakko vicāro kaṇṭako vutto bhagavatā,	Now it was further said that thought applied and sustained is a thorn for Second Jhāna—
atthi tassa vitakkavicārāti? na hevaṃ vattabbe ... pe ....	does one in Second Jhāna have applied and sustained thought? …
♦ paṭhamassa jhānassa saddo kaṇṭako vutto bhagavatāti, samāpanno saddaṃ suṇātīti? āmantā. tatiyassa jhānassa pīti kaṇṭako ... pe ...	Again, it was further said that the mental factor last eliminated is a thorn for the stage newly attained—zest for Third,
catutthassa jhānassa assāsapassāso kaṇṭako ...	respiration for Fourth Jhāna,
ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ samāpannassa rūpasaññā kaṇṭako...	perception of visible objects for consciousness of space-infinity,
viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ samāpannassa ākāsānañcāyatanasaññā kaṇṭako...	this perception for that of consciousness as infinite,
ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ samāpannassa viññāṇañcāyatanasaññā kaṇṭako...	this perception for that of nothingness,
nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ samāpannassa ākiñcaññāyatanasaññā kaṇṭako...	this perception for that in neither perception nor non perception,
saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ samāpannassa saññā ca vedanā ca kaṇṭako vutto bhagavatā,	perception and feeling for cessation
atthi tassa saññā ca vedanā cāti?	of these in trance.
na hevaṃ vattabbe ... pe ....	Now is “the thorn” actually present on the winning of the stage whence it is pronounced to be a thorn?
	If not, then how can you say that the “thorn” of hearing sound is present to one in First Jhāna?
♦ saddaṃ suṇātītikathā niṭṭhitā.	(end of section)

Now we we show their fallacies

1a.  hearing sounds is not possible, because you also can not see, smell, touch, taste objects in jhana. 

Fallacy.

See MN 111. The first 7 attainments all have cetana (intention with respect to the 6 sense doors).

The first 4 attainments have perception via the 6 sense doors.

But starting with base of infinite space, attainment #5, the their perception excludes rupa (form), which would then exclude the first 5 sense doors. 

The 4 jhanas have rupa perception, the 4 jhanas are not arupa attainments in the EBT.

So the first 4 jhanas can see, smell, touch, taste, and hear while one is in that jhana. For someone sitting with their eyes closed, doing breath meditation jhana for example, they would be able to hear ambient background noise  and feel kinesthetic and  tactile bodily sensations caused by piti and sukha without destroying the singular focus and salient qualities of that jhana.

AN 9.36, another prominent sutta where vipassana is being done explicitly while in the perception attainments (4 jhanas + first 3 formless),  is even more explicit about perception of rupa while in the 4 jhanas. Notice after the 4 jhanas, they only do vipassana on the 4 mental aggregates, excluding rupa, whereas prior to that all 5 aggregates examined, 

So yadeva tattha hoti	He {regards} whatever there is
rūpagataṃ	connected to – form
vedanāgataṃ	connected to – feelings
saññāgataṃ	connected to – perception
saṅkhāragataṃ	connected to – fabrications
viññāṇagataṃ,	connected to – consciousness,
te dhamme	those phenomena (are)
A-niccato dukkhato	Im-permanent, suffering,
rogato gaṇḍato	A disease, a cancer,
sallato aghato	an arrow, painful,
ābādhato parato	an affliction, alien,
palokato suññato an-attato	a disintegration, empty, not-self.

1b. hearing sounds and the mind being singular (focused on jhana factors) would involve two parallel processes, which is impossible, since jhana is singular. 

Fallacy.

The most explicit examples involving all 6 senses would be the meditator in the purified imperturbable 4th jhana wielding higher knowledges. A common example (there are people alive who can do this), a monk who has mind reading power, is standing with eyes open, giving a dhamma talk, taking questions, is listening, seeing, reading the mind of an audience member, smelling a fart from someone in the first row, tasting that piece of food stuck in his teeth from lunch. In the EBT, there is no "access concentration". It's just called 4th jhana, or if you want to be more precise, since not all 4th jhana meditators can do this, it's a purified imperturbable 4th jhana,

2. The second argument is referring to AN 10.72 

with sounds being thorns in first jhana. Ab passage claims this is impossible for sound to be a thorn in first jhana, since the other thorns mentioned in AN 10.72, such as vitakka as a thorn for second jhana, would mean it's possible to be in second jhana and peform vitakka (thinking verbally, linguistically). 

Fallacy. Multiple fallacies and red herrings

See AN 9.41 and SN 40 for examples where the thorns are happening and described explicitly.

Maybe Abhidhamma is just being pedantic and saying the moment vitakka becomes a thorn and interrupts second jhana, that moment of interruption is already not 'jhana'. 

But the fact is, as already pointed out with the fallacies of 1a and 1b, MN 111 is very explicit about cetana (will, intention) and rupa perception being active in the first four jhanas, and also being able to to examine all those individual factors one after another. 

Ab Argument 2  also contains multiple red herrings. 

first herring: (distract you from noticing that AN 10.72 is talking about sound thorn in all 4 jhanas, not just the first)

AN 10.72 actually states that sound is a thorn for jhānā (plural), not just first jhana, meaning all 4 jhanas can experience the painful thorn of loud sounds, which again, agrees with MN 111 rupa perception. 

second and third herring:(sound as a thorn is not comparable to the other 3 thorns for jhanas 2-4)

The other thorns for jhanas 2-4 mentioned in AN 10.72 would temporarily knock them out of that jhana, but sound would not, unless the sound was loud enough to disturb their passaddhi and samadhi. 

So this Abhidhamma argument amounts to sophistry, since they're trying to equate  a potential thorn that doesn't have to destroy that jhana, with genuine jhana destroyers that would at least momentarily end that jhana. Meaning there's a difference between soft sounds that aren't thorns, and exceptionally loud sounds that are thorns and painful to hear, which would introduce dukkha indriya into the jhana and possibly end that jhana. 

But then there is the matter of the imperturbable 4th jhana. See MN 125 for example, and the simile of training the war elephant via jhanas 2-4, and successful completion of imperturbable 4th jhana resulting in a war elephant that withstands the loud sounds of war, being pierced by arrows, without destroying their 4th jhana attainment. The meditator in imperturbable 4th jhana is awake, conscious, percipient of being pierced by mosquito bites, hearing loud noises, feeling the pain of heat, cold, etc. 

That's in contrast to the imperturbable formless attainments where they can't hear sounds, feel bodily sensations, etc.

Conclusion

Unless there is something in Abhidhamma book 5 that states that when they say "jhāna", they're referring to a redefined Jhana different from the EBT (early buddhist texts, pali suttas),  it's obvious that their passage on hearing sounds on jhana contradicts what the suttas say.

Abhidhamma supporters have to decide which scripture to support. 

You can't pretend LBT doesn't contradict EBT on some important doctrinal points. 

You can't pretend everything in the tipitaka is the Buddha's authentic word and there are no contradictions.

edit, addition on 10/18:

A few more interesting facts I discovered researching the topic.

Tv Ab Kv (book 5 of Abhidhamma pitaka) is relatively late, compared to earlier canonical abhidhamma.

So the whole premise of the OP, based Tv Ab Kv 18.8, really doesn't represent early Abhidhamma thought and we could rightly disregard that anyway. What LBT proponents need to do is show where early strata of Abhidhamma supports a disembodied jhana. I don't think they can.

For example, Vimuttimagga, which is earlier than Vism. and from which it is based, also relies and Abhidhamma and talks about 40 meditation topics.

But unlike Vism., Vimuttimagga has hearing sounds in the 4 jhanas, sensing the body, and they properly distinguish between form and formless attainments.

The sad thing about LBT followers blinded by bias, they still insist you can't walk in jhana even though their own scripture Vism. says it is possible to stand (earlier post by Assaji) and walk while doing LBT "jhana" appana samadhi. I heard this from Pa Auk himself, that Vism. supports walking and doing VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana).

So if it's possible to do the more difficult LBT jhana, why would anyone even doubt EBT walking jhana is doable?

Forum discussion

https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=41526

steel man vs. straw man

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious
 by frank k » Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:20 am

waryoffolly wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:25 pm... regarding steel man (as opposed to straw man) for rupa kaya in MN 111 ...There's also 3rd jhana's "sukham ca kayena patisamvedeti". One experiences sukha pleasure with the kaya body in third jhana, therefore, the sanna perception aggregate and cetana volition would have that bodily sense base as part of a rupa kaya experience, not a mind only nama kaya as ambiguators and equivocators would claim.

3rd jhana kaya is a 'steel man' by any reasonable measure. (Sujato is the only EBT translator among the many reputable English translators who would dispute that).

You're suggestion that both sides of the argument should try to present steel man arguments, rather than straw men, which is a fine suggestion.

But I would suggest that you may have your sense of normalcy (of relative straw and steel man) tilted far in the direction of equivocators and ambiguators already, and are placing unreasonable demands on the side using a standard dictionary.

At a certain point, you have to just concede that the ambiguators will stop at nothing to confirm their bias. The AN 9.36 rupa example you made, Vism. equivocates that away by saying it's the rupa of the mind made kasina that one is actually experiencing, not the 4 element rupa of the physical body. If you point out that you can't find anything in the sutta pitaka where it says jhana is dependant on a kasina, and the kasina is the rupa referenced by the base of infinite space formula. Then Vism. and Abhidhamma would reply The Buddha was terse in the suttas and only the wisdom of Abhidhamma commentary can unlock the secret meaning.
Etc.

At a certain point you have to realize some people are dogmatic religious zealots who have abandoned common sense and reasoning, and you shouldn't have to pander to them and set an unreasonably high bar for a steel man (for the side based on ockham's razor and using a standard dictionary).

What you were asking from me for a 'steel man', is like complaining that I didn't do enough to anticipate the opposing arguments and preemptively show 'steel man' evidence that the four jhanas don't require harvey the pink rabbit kasina for rupa kaya.

What you should be asking is that the steel man for the opponents show proof of where it redefines rupa, where it redefines kaya, and where it says the four jhanas depend on harvey the pink rabbit kasina. The burden of proof should be on those equivocating and arguing in favor of a suspicious dictionary that confirms their biases and agenda.

Does one have their ears cut off in satipatthana as well?

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious
 by frank k » Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:46 am

Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:36 pmAre there sonic samādhis with functioning ear-consciousnesses in Theravāda?

are you asking me, or asking rhetorically to get others to see the answer for themselves?
This sutta, MN 125 (my translation has clarifying notes relevant to OP)
https://lucid24.org/mn/mn125/index.html

The simile of the elephant makes this clear, especially when you break it down and see what stage matches which action of the elephant. The simile doesn't say, "then the trainer cuts off the elephants ear and gouges out his eyes so he can't see or hear."


And the fact that 1st jhana is omitted intentionally in this sutta (at 4 jhana formula),
makes it unequivocal that 1st jhana is the same as the satipatthana stage where it describes (instead of 1st jhana).

Does one think you can't hear in satipatthana either? That one has one's ear cut off in satipatthana?

And what about the 3rd jhana with satipatthana built in to the formula? There's a special satipatthana where one's ears are cut off (following the vism. assumption that in jhana you can't hear).

elephant isn't being blind folded, ear plugs put in, led into a cave under a big mountain with the entrance shut off.

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious
 by frank k » Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:55 am
LBT follower would just say, (in response to AN 5.29 quote below), the samadhi is not attained WHILE walking because of some pali grammar reason. While walking, it's not samadhi, but after walking and sitting, then you get the long lasting samadhi.
On his notes for AN 4.41 Sujato uses weird sophistic reasoning like that to try to explain away the functions of jhana in seeing light and samapajano (of 3rd jhana prominently) observing rise and fall of vedana, sanna, vitakka, as not being actually part of samadhi and jhana (while you're in that attianment), but the samadhi bhavana is something you do that supports "real jhana".

A better sutta citation would be AN 8.63, the 4sp satipatthana are explicitly called "samadhi", and MN 125 explicitly equates doing 4sp having already removed 5 hindrances and having no kama vitakka, as first jhana. So that stage of 4sp that can walk, think, hear sounds, is exactly the same as a walking first jhana that can talk, hear sounds, think. The elephant similes in MN 125 make that really clear. The elephant isn't being blind folded, ear plugs put in, led into a cave under a big mountain with the entrance shut off. Just as the 4 jhana similes of AN 5.28 are describing exactly what feels like experientially, so is the war elephant here using jhana aware of body and senses through all 4 jhanas.

Assaji wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:17 am

Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:00 amSo, in Theravāda, "access jhāna" can be had while not in seated meditation? It doesn't say "while walking," it says "while he stood." Can "access jhāna" not be had while moving?Samādhi can be attained even while walking:

Monks, there are these five benefits of walking up & down. What five?

One is fit for long journeys; one is fit for striving; one has little disease; that which is eaten, drunk, chewed, tasted, goes through proper digestion; the composure (samādhi) attained by walking up & down is long-lasting.

These, monks, are the five benefits of walking up & down.https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .agku.html

Sujato infinite duck conundrum 

Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by frank k » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:38 am

It's not just AN 4.12, the same sutta occurs at in the ending of KN Iti.

https://lucid24.org/kn/kn-iti/iti4/index.html#s109

The structure of KN Iti is very interesting, the whole KN Iti doesn't ever mention the explicit 4 jhana formulas,

and the last 5 or so suttas are a gradual training showing the path from worldling to nirvana.

So that equivalent passage from AN 4.12, in addition to including the keywords ekaggata, samadhi, passadhi (one who has passaddhi will have piti and sukha), are also occurring in an area of the gradual training normally occupied by the jhanas.

The only sensible conclusion is that samadhi is equivalent to the 4 jhanas.

Otherwise, you have some sort of alternative non jhana samadhi system.

Also note that AN 8.63 and MN 128, the 3 ways of samadhi, which also doesn't explicitly call it 'jhana', everyone easily accepts that as 4 jhana equivalent. AN 4.12 and KN Iti 111 is exactly the same situation. It's no less jhana than 3 way samadhi.

This is what I call the infinite duck problem. You have a number of places where 4 jhana formula is not explicitly stated, just a few of the key terms, yet Sujato and Vism. will conveniently crown certain ones "jhana", while all the others with just as strong of a candidacy are dismissed as "not jhanic samadhi." Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck but is not a duck unless Sujato says so. Smart money says, when Sujato seems really adamant it's not a duck, it's a duck.