Skip to main content

SN 12.63: B. Sujato 🤦 can't tell the difference between metta, 'love' and 'lust'.

Kāma usually means sensuality or lust.
But occasionally in the suttas, it's used in a neutral or positive context, such as an extreme desire/determination to do some skillful activity. In this sutta, SN 12.63, it's a neutral or ordinary context of everyone's 'love' of life and fear of death.

But because B. Sujato translates 'metta' as 'love', and he actually overuses 'love' in translating many other pali words besides 'metta', for some reason in this sutta, where 'love' is actually the perfect word to translate 'kāma', he decides to under translate it as 'want'. Similar to how 'dislike' is not really the appropriate way to describe 'hate'.


B. Sujato's  🤦 translation of 'kāma' as 'want' 

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.63/en/sujato


Kathañca, bhikkhave, manosañcetanāhāro daṭṭhabbo?
And how should you regard mental intention as fuel?
Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, aį¹…gārakāsu sādhikaporisā puṇṇā aį¹…gārānaṃ vÄ«taccikānaṃ vÄ«tadhÅ«mānaṃ.
Suppose there was a pit of glowing coals deeper than a man’s height, filled with glowing coals that neither flamed nor smoked.
Atha puriso āgaccheyya jīvitukāmo amaritukāmo sukhakāmo dukkhappaṭikūlo.
Then a person would come along who wants to live and doesn’t want to die, who wants to be happy and recoils from pain.
Tamenaṃ dve balavanto purisā nānābāhāsu gahetvā taṃ aį¹…gārakāsuṃ upakaįøįøheyyuṃ.
Then two strong men would grab them by the arms and drag them towards the pit of glowing coals.
Atha kho, bhikkhave, tassa purisassa ārakāvassa cetanā ārakā patthanā ārakā paṇidhi.
Then that person’s intention, aim, and wish would be to get far away.
Taṃ kissa hetu?
Why is that?
EvaƱhi, bhikkhave, tassa purisassa hoti:
Because that person would think:
‘imaƱcāhaṃ aį¹…gārakāsuṃ papatissāmi, tatonidānaṃ maraṇaṃ vā nigacchāmi maraṇamattaṃ vā dukkhan’ti.
‘If I fall in that pit of glowing coals, that will result in my death or deadly pain.’
Evameva khvāhaṃ, bhikkhave, ‘manosaƱcetanāhāro daį¹­į¹­habbo’ti vadāmi.
I say that this is how you should regard mental intention as fuel.
ManosaƱcetanāya, bhikkhave, āhāre pariƱƱāte tisso taṇhā pariƱƱātā honti.
When mental intention as fuel is completely understood, the three cravings are completely understood.
TÄ«su taṇhāsu pariƱƱātāsu ariyasāvakassa natthi kiƱci uttarikaraṇīyanti vadāmi.
When the three cravings are completely understood, a noble disciple has nothing further to do, I say.


For comparison, B. Thanissaro's translation: of the same words and passage:


3. ♦ “kathaƱca, bhikkhave, manosaƱcetanāhāro daį¹­į¹­habbo? seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, aį¹…gārakāsu sādhikaporisā puṇṇā aį¹…gārānaṃ vÄ«taccikānaṃ vÄ«tadhÅ«mānaṃ. atha puriso āgaccheyya jÄ«vitukāmo amaritukāmo sukhakāmo dukkhappaį¹­ikÅ«lo. tamenaṃ dve balavanto purisā nānābāhāsu gahetvā taṃ aį¹…gārakāsuṃ upakaįøįøheyyuṃ. atha kho, bhikkhave, tassa purisassa ārakāvassa cetanā ārakā patthanā ārakā paṇidhi. taṃ kissa hetu? evaƱhi, bhikkhave, tassa purisassa hoti — ‘imaṃ cāhaṃ aį¹…gārakāsuṃ papatissāmi, tatonidānaṃ maraṇaṃ vā nigacchāmi maraṇamattaṃ vā dukkhan’ti. evameva khvāhaṃ, bhikkhave, ‘manosaƱcetanāhāro daį¹­į¹­habbo’ti vadāmi. manosaƱcetanāya, bhikkhave, āhāre pariƱƱāte tisso taṇhā pariƱƱātā honti. tÄ«su taṇhāsu pariƱƱātāsu ariyasāvakassa natthi kiƱci uttarikaraṇīyanti vadāmi.
3) “And how is the nutriment of intellectual intention to be regarded? Suppose there were a pit of glowing embers, deeper than a man’s height, full of embers that were neither flaming nor smoking, and a man were to come along—loving life, hating death, loving pleasure, abhorring pain—and two strong men, having grabbed him by the arms, were to drag him to the pit of embers. To get far away would be that man’s intention, far away would be his wish, far away would be his aspiration. Why is that? Because he would realize, ‘If I fall into this pit of glowing embers, I will meet with death from that cause, or with death-like pain.’ In the same way, I tell you, is the nutriment of intellectual intention to be regarded. When the nutriment of intellectual intention is comprehended, the three forms of craving [for sensuality, for becoming, and for non-becoming] are comprehended. When the three forms of craving are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do.    


The point is errors cascade and compound

When you make a serious translation and interpretation error (B. Sujato translation of 'metta' as 'love'), then the errors compound and cascade when you have to translate other related pali words incorrectly to not clash with and amplify your original error.



Comments

Popular posts from this blog

Lucid24.org: What's new?

Link to lucid24.org home page :    4šŸ‘‘☸   Remember, you may have to click the refresh button on your web browser navigation bar at to get updated website. 2024 9-17 Lots of new stuff in the last 2 and a half years.  Too many to list. Main one justifying new blog entry, is redesign of home page. Before, it was designed to please me, super dense with everything in one master control panel. I've redesigned it to be friendly to newbies and everyone really. Clear structure, more use of space.  At someone's request, I added a lucid24.org google site search at top of home page. 2022 4-14 Major update to lucid24.org, easy navigation of suttas, quicklink: the ramifications 4-2 new feature lucid24.org sutta quick link 3-28 A new translation of SN 38.16, and first jhāna is a lot easier than you think šŸ”—šŸ“notes related to Jhāna force and J.A.S.I. effect AN 9.36, MN 64, MN 111: How does Ajahn Brahm and Sujato's "Jhāna" work here? 3-13 Added to EBPedia J.A.S.I. ('Jazzy...

AN 9.36, MN 64, MN 111: How does Ajahn Brahm and Sujato's "Jhāna" work here?

What these 3 suttas have in common, AN 9.36, MN 64, MN 111, is the very interesting feature of explicitly describing doing vipassana, while one is in the jhāna and the first 3 formless attainments. LBT (late buddhist text) apologists, as well as Sujato, Brahm, claim that the suttas describe a jhāna where one enters a disembodied, frozen state, where vipassana is impossible until one emerges from that 'jhāna'.  Since Sujato translated all the suttas, let's take a look at what he translated, and how it supports his interpretation of 'jhāna'.  AN 9.36: Jhānasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato (suttacentral.net) ‘The first absorption is a basis for ending the defilements.’ ‘Paį¹­hamampāhaṁ,   bhikkhave,   jhānaṁ   nissāya   āsavānaṁ   khayaṁ   vadāmÄ«’ti,   iti   kho   panetaṁ   vuttaṁ. That’s what I said, but why did I say it? KiƱcetaṁ   paį¹­icca   vuttaṁ? Take a mendicant who, q uite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskill...

Pāḷi and Sanskrit definition of Viveka

  'Viveka', Sanskrit dictionary Primary meaning is ‘discrimination’. Other meanings:  (1) true knowledge,  (2) discretion,  (3) right judgement,  (4) the faculty of distinguishing and classifying things according to their real properties’. Wikipedia (sanskrit dictionary entry 'viveka') Viveka (Sanskrit: विवेक, romanized: viveka) is a Sanskrit and Pali term translated into English as discernment or discrimination.[1] According to Rao and Paranjpe, viveka can be explained more fully as: Sense of discrimination; wisdom; discrimination between the real and the unreal, between the self and the non-self, between the permanent and the impermanent; discriminative inquiry; right intuitive discrimination; ever present discrimination between the transient and the permanent.[2]: 348  The Vivekachudamani is an eighth-century Sanskrit poem in dialogue form that addresses the development of viveka. Within the Vedanta tradition, there is also a concept of vichara which is one t...