difference between mudita (virtuous joy) pīti (rapture), and late Theravada mudita as brahmavihara
(split from another topic)
My impression of mudita (as a brahmavihara) is that it very much also includes the virtuous cause/source of the happiness of others that we're appreciating, and not just appreciating that people are happy. For example, I would not have mudita for a bank robber being happy because he got rich robbing a bank. I would not have mudita for someone just because they bought a new car or got a promotion at work.
I would have mudita for someone who was happy because of their virtuous behavior they experienced the fruit of that.
In fact, I would still have mudita for someone who was NOT happy because they temporarily experienced pain from doing virtue, because I know down the line they will experience happiness from their virtuous action.
vimutti magga description of mudita as brahmavihara:
And from my EBT survey of piti and mudita:
http://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/4piti/book/ ... l#tophead
I don't see any difference between mudita as a brahma vihara and mudita (pamojja and piti) in the 7sb awakening factor sequence. It is specifically caused by right sati, right thought, right action doing virtuous actions ardently (with viriya and right effort), and one becomes gladdened at the good results of purifying one's mind. As a brahmavihara, that extends to others besides one self. But it very much has to do with kusala Dharma, and not just any old happiness that people experience (from akusala causes).
Dhammanando wrote: ↑Bhante, can you expand on that, especially whether there are any EBT sources to support your claim?Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:21 ambinocular wrote: ↑It doesn't to me.Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:59 amDhammanando wrote: ↑To me, this seems more like sympathetic joy.Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:42 amThe revered person needn't be a Buddhist teacher or even a Buddhist. The proximate cause of mettā is sattānaṃ manāpabhāvadassanaṃ the "beholding of what is endearing in beings", meaning whatever kusala qualities are noticeable in them. The point of beginning with a person one reveres is simply that their possession of such qualities will be more conspicuous than in others and so the arousing of mettā will be easier.
Beholding the personal qualities that make a person endearing to others is a different thing from beholding the successes or good fortune (sampatti) that have come to that person. The latter is the proximate cause of muditā.
My impression of mudita (as a brahmavihara) is that it very much also includes the virtuous cause/source of the happiness of others that we're appreciating, and not just appreciating that people are happy. For example, I would not have mudita for a bank robber being happy because he got rich robbing a bank. I would not have mudita for someone just because they bought a new car or got a promotion at work.
I would have mudita for someone who was happy because of their virtuous behavior they experienced the fruit of that.
In fact, I would still have mudita for someone who was NOT happy because they temporarily experienced pain from doing virtue, because I know down the line they will experience happiness from their virtuous action.
vimutti magga description of mudita as brahmavihara:
What is the procedure ?
The new yogin enters a place of solitude and sits down with mind collected and undisturbed. When one sees or hears that some person's qualities are esteemed by others, and that he is at peace and is joyful, one thinks thus: "sadhu! sadhu! may he continue joyful for a long time!".
And again, when one sees or hears that a certain person does not follow demeri- torious doctrines, or that he does not follow undesirable doctrines and that he follows desirable doctrines, one thinks thus: "sadhu! sadhu! may he continue joyful for a long time!".
And from my EBT survey of piti and mudita:
http://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/4piti/book/ ... l#tophead
I don't see any difference between mudita as a brahma vihara and mudita (pamojja and piti) in the 7sb awakening factor sequence. It is specifically caused by right sati, right thought, right action doing virtuous actions ardently (with viriya and right effort), and one becomes gladdened at the good results of purifying one's mind. As a brahmavihara, that extends to others besides one self. But it very much has to do with kusala Dharma, and not just any old happiness that people experience (from akusala causes).
some interesting exchanges, and my most recent response:
Re: difference between mudita (virtuous joy) pīti (rapture), and late Theravada mudita as brahmavihara
'pa' is just an amplifier prefix. Does pa-jānāti really have an appreciably different meaning than jānāti?
Or in this important passage from SN 46.3 (which is again, a frequent and important 7sb sequence that I'm using as evidence)
pa-vicarati is something completely different than vicaara of (vitakka and vicara),
anu-vitakka is completely different than vitakka of (vitakka and vicara),
and pari-vimamsa is something completely different than iddhipada of vimamsa-samadhi-padhana-sankhara....?
I agree with you that piti and pa-mojja it's hard to establish exactly what their relationship is,
but I can't see how pa-mudita is different than mudita (as a brahmavihara).
If they are different, then what is the difference?
Vimutti magga seems to treat mudita as brahmavihara the same way I'm interpreting the pa-mudita with pa-mojja connection,
as a type of gladness caused by appreciating virtue. It's worth reading the entire section, it's really short, and here's the heart of it:
-frank
I'm open to other possibilities, but my interpretation seems to be much more plausible than assuming pa-mudita is completely different than mudita (as a brahmavihara). So if they different, then what's the difference?
Or in this important passage from SN 46.3 (which is again, a frequent and important 7sb sequence that I'm using as evidence)
(0.Are we to believe that pa-viciniti is something radically different than dhamma-vicaya,Bhikkhūnaṃ dhammaṃ sutvā)
0.
(1.Sati: taṃ Dhammaṃ anus-sarati anu-vitakketi)
1.
(2.Dhamma-vicaya: taṃ dhammaṃ paññāya, pa-vicinati pa-vicarati pari-vīmaṃsam-āpajjati )
2.
pa-vicarati is something completely different than vicaara of (vitakka and vicara),
anu-vitakka is completely different than vitakka of (vitakka and vicara),
and pari-vimamsa is something completely different than iddhipada of vimamsa-samadhi-padhana-sankhara....?
I agree with you that piti and pa-mojja it's hard to establish exactly what their relationship is,
but I can't see how pa-mudita is different than mudita (as a brahmavihara).
If they are different, then what is the difference?
Vimutti magga seems to treat mudita as brahmavihara the same way I'm interpreting the pa-mudita with pa-mojja connection,
as a type of gladness caused by appreciating virtue. It's worth reading the entire section, it's really short, and here's the heart of it:
What is the procedure ?That exactly matches the piiti-paamojja that occurs in MN 61 (reflection on our actions before, during, and after the action), and the important marana-sati 2 sutta,
The new yogin enters a place of solitude and sits down with mind collected and undisturbed. When one sees or hears that some person's qualities are esteemed by others, and that he is at peace and is joyful, one thinks thus: "sadhu! sadhu! may he continue joyful for a long time!".
And again, when one sees or hears that a certain person does not follow demeri- torious doctrines, or that he does not follow undesirable doctrines and that he follows desirable doctrines, one thinks thus: "sadhu! sadhu! may he continue joyful for a long time!".
AN 6.20 marana-sati and virtue reflectionThat matches exactly how I'm interpreting the 7sb pa-mudita correspondence with mudita as a brahmavihara, and that Vimt. concurs.
(the default way to generate pīti, pamojja, in 7sb)
♦ “sace pana, bhikkhave, bhikkhu
{but} if, monks, (a) monk,
paccavekkhamāno evaṃ jānāti —
(on) reflecting thus realizes --
‘n-atthi me
'not-existing (in) me [are]
pāpakā akusalā dhammā ap-pahīnā,
evil un-skillful qualities un-abandoned,
ye me assu rattiṃ kālaṃ
that I might, (by) night time's [death]
karontassa antarāyāyā’ti,
(still have) active (as an) obstacle,
tena, bhikkhave, bhikkhunā
then monks, (a) monk
teneva
for that very [reason],
pīti-pāmojjena vihātabbaṃ
enraptured-(and with)-gladness (he) should-dwell,
aho-ratt-ānu-sikkhinā
day-(and)-night-(he)-trains
kusalesu dhammesu.
(in) skillful qualities.
-frank
I'm open to other possibilities, but my interpretation seems to be much more plausible than assuming pa-mudita is completely different than mudita (as a brahmavihara). So if they different, then what's the difference?
Dhammanando wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:08 amfrank k wrote: ↑What of it?Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:36 amBut note that this causal sequence pattern happens like 50 times in the suttas (the 7sb sequence) (not exact number, DN alone also has that happening at least 10 times that don't come up in searches because of large peyaala)
The high frequency of pīti and pāmojjaṃ isn't evidence that either can be identified with muditā.
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