Is the kāya (body) physical or is it mental B. Sujato? Make up your mind, you can't have it both ways.

B. Sujato translation of SN 46.52, on 7 awakening factors

excerpt from
https://suttacentral.net/sn46.52/en/sujato

Physical energy is the awakening factor of energy; and mental energy is also the awakening factor of energy.Yadapi, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ vīriyaṃ tadapi vīriyasambojjhaṅgo, yadapi cetasikaṃ vīriyaṃ tadapi vīriyasambojjhaṅgo.That’s how what is concisely referred to as ‘the awakening factor of energy’ becomes twofold.‘Vīriyasambojjhaṅgo’ti iti hidaṃ uddesaṃ gacchati. Tadamināpetaṃ pariyāyena dvayaṃ hoti.

Rapture while placing the mind and keeping it connected is the awakening factor of rapture; and rapture without placing the mind and keeping it connected is also the awakening factor of rapture.Yadapi, bhikkhave, savitakkasavicārā pīti tadapi pītisambojjhaṅgo, yadapi avitakkaavicārā pīti tadapi pītisambojjhaṅgo.In this way what is concisely referred to as ‘the awakening factor of rapture’ becomes twofold.‘Pītisambojjhaṅgo’ti iti hidaṃ uddesaṃ gacchati. Tadamināpetaṃ pariyāyena dvayaṃ hoti.

Physical tranquility is the awakening factor of tranquility; and mental tranquility is also the awakening factor of tranquility.Yadapi, bhikkhave, kāyappassaddhi tadapi passaddhisambojjhaṅgo, yadapi cittappassaddhi tadapi passaddhisambojjhaṅgo.In this way what is concisely referred to as ‘the awakening factor of tranquility’ becomes twofold.‘Passaddhisambojjhaṅgo’ti iti hidaṃ uddesaṃ gacchati. Tadamināpetaṃ pariyāyena dvayaṃ hoti.

Immersion while placing the mind and keeping it connected is the awakening factor of immersion; and immersion without placing the mind and keeping it connected is also the awakening factor of immersion.Yadapi, bhikkhave, savitakko savicāro samādhi tadapi samādhisambojjhaṅgo, yadapi avitakkaavicāro samādhi tadapi samādhisambojjhaṅgo.In this way what is concisely referred to as ‘the awakening factor of immersion’ becomes twofold.‘Samādhisambojjhaṅgo’ti iti hidaṃ uddesaṃ gacchati. Tadamināpetaṃ pariyāyena dvayaṃ hoti.

Here is B. Sujato's translation of 3rd  jhana (SN 45.8)

And with the fading away of rapture, they enter and remain in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti, yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti: ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.

Contradiction!

From the first passage on awakening factors, Sujato's idiosyncratic translation of vitakka and vicara as "placing the mind" assures us he believes the 7 awakening factors are referring to the very same state of samadhi as the 4 jhanas.

But look under his passaddhi translation, Tranquility clearly has a physical and mental component, by his own translation. So in the EBT, just like the abhidhamma, when they want to differentiate between mind and body, they qualify it with 'kaya' and 'citta' (or mano). In third jhana, the sukha vedana (which is what the verb pati-sam-vedeti "feels" with reference to sukha), is qualified by kayena. Since sukha vedana can  be physical (kaya)  and mental (citta), here in 3rd jhana the Buddha is qualifying that it definitely must include the physical (kayena).

So somehow, Sujato's passadhi awakening factor which is physical, suddenly becomes mind only, "he personally experences" in his 3rd jhana translation.

With his erroneous translation of the jhana formula, he's confusing and misleading an untold number of Buddhists every day.

What is kayena ?

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Post by sentinel » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:35 pm

Some translation is body , some translated as Personal ?!

Some of the translators on suttacentral, who translate the pali into different languages, are also under the impression that Sujato's wrong understanding of jhana is the standard EBT (early buddhist teaching) interpretation, and they adopt his wrong translation of Jhana as a result, harming not only English readers, but also internationally. What a weapon is modern technology, allowing us to harm people who don't even speak our native language.

The Dhamma is going to get fully corrupted and die out someday, but at least try not to let it happen in your lifetime.

Response to some user comments:

DooDoot wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:20 pm

frank k wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:03 pm

...

Very difficult to work out what you are attempting to say. Please explain more. Thanks

What part was confusing?
The basic idea, is the kaya in the 7 awakening factor's pacification/passadhi, is the same kaya that enters samadhi-bojjhanga, which is manifested in the form of 4 jhanas. So B. Sujato's contradiction, is that he correctly translates kaya under 7 awakening factors, but in his standard formula for four jhanas, he murders the kaya and makes it into a mind only personality that "personally experiences sukha."

ArkaJanuary 17, 2020 at 12:19 AM

I don't know what happiness do they obtain by misconstruing the Jhanas, from every Thai Forest meditation master, the advice is to discard the nimittas. Then came Ajahn Brahm with his meditation training from England by a teacher who taught from the Visuddhimagga, so his fans or supporters try to paint the picture that this indeed is the "real" Jhana by taking the quotes from the canon out of context. And their egalitarian views also do help to paint the picture that they must be right, as compared to someone like a pragmatist like Thanissaro Bhikkhu , who they love to bash and everything that comes from him as well. Suttacentral is mostly what I see is a Thanissaro Bhikkhu bashing site and a sort of attempt in self hypnosis of the fact that they have discovered the "real" Buddhism. The crux of the general view that Jhana is not possible in this day and age, stems from nothing but the Visuddhimagga, and people like Ajahn Brahm and his compatriots.

frankk:
There's surviorship bias in the case of Vism. The survivors/winners write (re-write) the history books to reflect their bias and agenda. Mahayana was popular among aristocrats, lay people, influencers, was perceived as 'newer, better, more novel', and then became the most popular form of Buddhism.  Ajahn Brahm is charismatic and popular, and a nice guy with a great spiritual practice, so people trust his version of Buddhism. So that's just the way the world works, they believe the influencers with the most followers. People who speak the truth, especially when truths are uncomfortable or don't conform the popular view of the time, don't tend to get followers.