Thursday, January 9, 2020

DN 21 sound of chariot causes buddha to emerge from samadhi

I got this comment from an old blog post that I just noticed (don't check my email that often for this account):

ArkaDecember 11, 2019 at 11:02 PM

Isn't this sufficient to refute the camp of pro Vism. jhanas ?

frankkJanuary 9, 2020 at 9:44 AM

Hi Arka, didn't see your comment until just now. I'll respond in a new blog post.

In that original post, I had quoted a passage from DN 21, and highlighted the line where the Buddha hears sound and emerges from samadhi. Here it is again, I highlight key words and analysis follows after the passage.


2. Sakkūpasaṅkama
2. The Approach of Sakka
Atha kho sakkassa devānamindassa etadahosi:
Then Sakka, lord of gods, thought:
“paṭisammodati pañcasikho gandhabbadevaputto bhagavatā, bhagavā ca pañcasikhenā”ti.
“Pañcasikha is exchanging pleasantries with the Buddha.”
Atha kho sakko devānamindo pañcasikhaṃ gandhabbadevaputtaṃ āmantesi:
So he addressed Pañcasikha:
“abhivādehi me tvaṃ, tāta pañcasikha, bhagavantaṃ:
“My dear Pañcasikha, please bow to the Buddha for me, saying:
‘sakko, bhante, devānamindo sāmacco saparijano bhagavato pāde sirasā vandatī’”ti.
‘Sir, Sakka, lord of gods, with his ministers and retinue, bows with his head at your feet.’”
“Evaṃ, bhaddantavā”ti kho pañcasikho gandhabbadevaputto sakkassa devānamindassa paṭissutvā bhagavantaṃ abhivādeti:
“Yes, lord,” replied Pañcasikha. He bowed to the Buddha and said:
“sakko, bhante, devānamindo sāmacco saparijano bhagavato pāde sirasā vandatī”ti.
“Sir, Sakka, lord of gods, with his ministers and retinue, bows with his head at your feet.”
“Evaṃ sukhī hotu, pañcasikha, sakko devānamindo sāmacco saparijano;
“So may Sakka with his ministers and retinue be happy, Pañcasikha,” said the Buddha,
sukhakāmā hi devā manussā asurā nāgā gandhabbā ye caññe santi puthukāyā”ti.
“for all want to be happy—whether gods, humans, demons, dragons, fairies, or any of the other diverse creatures there may be.”
Evañca pana tathāgatā evarūpe mahesakkhe yakkhe abhivadanti.
For that is how the Realized Ones salute such illustrious spirits.
Abhivadito sakko devānamindo bhagavato indasālaguhaṃ pavisitvā bhagavantaṃ abhivādetvā ekamantaṃ aṭṭhāsi.
And being saluted by the Buddha, Sakka entered the Indasāla cave, bowed to the Buddha, and stood to one side.
Devāpi tāvatiṃsā indasālaguhaṃ pavisitvā bhagavantaṃ abhivādetvā ekamantaṃ aṭṭhaṃsu.
And the gods of the Thirty-Three did likewise,
Pañcasikhopi gandhabbadevaputto indasālaguhaṃ pavisitvā bhagavantaṃ abhivādetvā ekamantaṃ aṭṭhāsi.
as did Pañcasikha.
Tena kho pana samayena indasālaguhā visamā santī samā samapādi, sambādhā santī urundā samapādi, andhakāro guhāyaṃ antaradhāyi, āloko udapādi yathā taṃ devānaṃ devānubhāvena.
And at that time the uneven places were evened out, the cramped places were opened up, the darkness vanished and light appeared, as happens through the glory of the gods.
Atha kho bhagavā sakkaṃ devānamindaṃ etadavoca:
Then the Buddha said to Sakka:
“acchariyamidaṃ āyasmato kosiyassa, abbhutamidaṃ āyasmato kosiyassa tāva bahukiccassa bahukaraṇīyassa yadidaṃ idhāgamanan”ti.
“It’s incredible and amazing that you, the venerable Kosiya, who has so many duties and so much to do, should come here.”
“Cirapaṭikāhaṃ, bhante, bhagavantaṃ dassanāya upasaṅkamitukāmo; api ca devānaṃ tāvatiṃsānaṃ kehici kehici kiccakaraṇīyehi byāvaṭo; evāhaṃ nāsakkhiṃ bhagavantaṃ dassanāya upasaṅkamituṃ.
“For a long time I’ve wanted to go and see the Buddha, but I wasn’t able, being prevented by my many duties and responsibilities for the gods of the Thirty-Three.
Ekamidaṃ, bhante, samayaṃ bhagavā sāvatthiyaṃ viharati salaḷāgārake.
This one time, sir, the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in the frankincense-tree hut.
Atha khvāhaṃ, bhante, sāvatthiṃ agamāsiṃ bhagavantaṃ dassanāya.
Then I went to Sāvatthī to see the Buddha.
Tena kho pana, bhante, samayena bhagavā aññatarena samādhinā nisinno hoti, bhūjati ca nāma vessavaṇassa mahārājassa paricārikā bhagavantaṃ paccupaṭṭhitā hoti, pañjalikā namassamānā tiṭṭhati.
But at that time the Buddha was sitting immersed in some kind of meditation. And a divine maiden of Great King Vessavaṇa named Bhūjati was attending on the Buddha, standing there paying homage to him with joined palms.
Atha khvāhaṃ, bhante, bhūjatiṃ etadavocaṃ:
So I said to her:
‘abhivādehi me tvaṃ, bhagini, bhagavantaṃ:
‘Sister, please bow to the Buddha for me, saying:
“sakko, bhante, devānamindo sāmacco saparijano bhagavato pāde sirasā vandatī”’ti.
“Sir, Sakka, lord of gods, with his ministers and retinue, bows with his head at your feet.”’
Evaṃ vutte, bhante, sā bhūjati maṃ etadavoca:
When I said this, she said to me:
‘akālo kho, mārisa, bhagavantaṃ dassanāya;
‘It’s the wrong time to see the Buddha,
paṭisallīno bhagavā’ti.
as he’s in retreat.’
‘Tena hi, bhagini, yadā bhagavā tamhā samādhimhā vuṭṭhito hoti, atha mama vacanena bhagavantaṃ abhivādehi:
‘Well then, sister, please convey my message when the Buddha emerges from that undistractible-lucidity.’
“sakko, bhante, devānamindo sāmacco saparijano bhagavato pāde sirasā vandatī”’ti.
Kacci me sā, bhante, bhaginī bhagavantaṃ abhivādesi?
I hope that sister bowed to you?
Sarati bhagavā tassā bhaginiyā vacanan”ti?
Do you remember what she said?”
“Abhivādesi maṃ sā, devānaminda, bhaginī, sarāmahaṃ tassā bhaginiyā vacanaṃ.
“She did bow, lord of gods, and I remember what she said.
Api cāhaṃ āyasmato nemisaddena tamhā samādhimhā vuṭṭhito”ti.
I also remember that it was the sound of your chariot wheels that pulled me out of that undistractible-lucidity.”
“Ye te, bhante, devā amhehi paṭhamataraṃ tāvatiṃsakāyaṃ upapannā, tesaṃ me sammukhā sutaṃ sammukhā paṭiggahitaṃ:
“Sir, I have heard and learned this in the presence of the gods who were reborn in the host of the Thirty-Three before me:
‘yadā tathāgatā loke uppajjanti arahanto sammāsambuddhā, dibbā kāyā paripūrenti, hāyanti asurakāyā’ti.
‘When a Realized One arises in the world, perfected and fully awakened, the heavenly hosts swell, while the demon hosts dwindle.’
Taṃ me idaṃ, bhante, sakkhidiṭṭhaṃ yato tathāgato loke uppanno arahaṃ sammāsambuddho, dibbā kāyā paripūrenti, hāyanti asurakāyāti.
And I have seen this with my own eyes.


Compare with DN 16 pari nirvana sutta, where the word samadhi occurs 24 times, but not in the passage where the Buddha doesn't see or hear anything in a loud thunderstorm

‘Idāni, bhante, deve vassante deve gaḷagaḷāyante vijjullatāsu niccharantīsu asaniyā phalantiyā
‘Just now, sir, it was raining and pouring, lightning was flashing, and thunder was cracking.
dve kassakā bhātaro hatā cattāro ca balibaddā.
And two farmers who were brothers were killed, as well as four oxen.
Ettheso mahājanakāyo sannipatito.
Then this crowd gathered here.
Tvaṃ pana, bhante, kva ahosī’ti?
But sir, where were you?’
‘Idheva kho ahaṃ, āvuso, ahosin’ti.
‘I was right here, friend.’
‘Kiṃ pana, bhante, addasā’ti?
‘But sir, did you see?’
‘Na kho ahaṃ, āvuso, addasan’ti.
‘No, friend, I didn’t see anything.’
‘Kiṃ pana, bhante, saddaṃ assosī’ti?
‘But sir, didn’t you hear a sound?’
‘Na kho ahaṃ, āvuso, saddaṃ assosin’ti.
‘No, friend, I didn’t hear a sound.’
‘Kiṃ pana, bhante, sutto ahosī’ti?
‘But sir, were you asleep?’
‘Na kho ahaṃ, āvuso, sutto ahosin’ti.
‘No, friend, I wasn’t asleep.’
‘Kiṃ pana, bhante, saññī ahosī’ti?
‘But sir, were you conscious?’
‘Evamāvuso’ti.
‘Yes, friend.’
‘So tvaṃ, bhante, saññī samāno jāgaro deve vassante deve gaḷagaḷāyante vijjullatāsu niccharantīsu asaniyā phalantiyā neva addasa, na pana saddaṃ assosī’ti?
‘So, sir, while conscious and awake you neither saw nor heard a sound as it was raining and pouring, lightning was flashing, and thunder was cracking?’
‘Evamāvuso’ti?
‘Yes, friend.’
Atha kho, pukkusa, tassa purisassa etadahosi:
Then that person thought:
‘acchariyaṃ vata bho, abbhutaṃ vata bho, santena vata bho pabbajitā vihārena viharanti.
‘It’s incredible, it’s amazing! Those who have gone forth remain in such peaceful meditations,
Yatra hi nāma saññī samāno jāgaro deve vassante deve gaḷagaḷāyante vijjullatāsu niccharantīsu asaniyā phalantiyā neva dakkhati, na pana saddaṃ sossatī’ti.
in that, while conscious and awake he neither saw nor heard a sound as it was raining and pouring, lightning was flashing, and thunder was cracking.’
“Kiñhi, bhante, karissanti pañca vā sakaṭasatāni cha vā sakaṭasatāni satta vā sakaṭasatāni aṭṭha vā sakaṭasatāni nava vā sakaṭasatāni, sakaṭasahassaṃ vā sakaṭasatasahassaṃ vā.
“What do five hundred carts matter, or six hundred, or seven hundred, or eight hundred, or nine hundred, or a thousand, or even a hundred thousand carts?
Atha kho etadeva dukkaratarañceva durabhisambhavatarañca yo saññī samāno jāgaro deve vassante deve gaḷagaḷāyante vijjullatāsu niccharantīsu asaniyā phalantiyā neva passeyya, na pana saddaṃ suṇeyyā”ti.
It’s far harder and more challenging to neither see nor hear a sound as it’s raining and pouring, lightning’s flashing, and thunder’s cracking!”


 if they could hear, buddha would have responded to ananda talking to him.
♦ tatiyampi kho āyasmā ānando abhikkantāya rattiyā, nikkhante pacchime yāme, uddhaste aruṇe, nandimukhiyā rattiyā uṭṭhāyāsanā ekaṃsaṃ uttarāsaṅgaṃ karitvā yena bhagavā tenañjaliṃ paṇāmetvā bhagavantaṃ etadavoca — “abhikkantā, bhante, ratti; nikkhanto pacchimo yāmo; uddhasto aruṇo; nandimukhī ratti; ciranisinnā āgantukā bhikkhū; paṭisammodatu, bhante, bhagavā, āgantukehi bhikkhūhī”ti.
Then a third time, when the night was far advanced, at the end of the last watch, as dawn was approaching and the face of the night was beaming, Ven. Ānanda got up from his seat, arranged his robe over one shoulder, stood facing the Blessed One, paying homage to him with his hands placed palm-to-palm over his heart, and said to him, “The night, lord, is far advanced. The last watch has ended. Dawn is approaching and the face of the night is beaming. The visiting monks have been sitting here a long time. May the Blessed One greet them.”
♦ atha kho bhagavā tamhā samādhimhā vuṭṭhahitvā āyasmantaṃ ānandaṃ āmantesi — “sace kho tvaṃ, ānanda, jāneyyāsi ettakampi te nappaṭibhāseyya VAR . ahañca, ānanda, imāni ca pañca bhikkhusatāni sabbeva āneñja--samādhinā nisīdimhā”ti.
Then the Blessed One, emerging from his imperturbable concentration, said to Ven. Ānanda, “Ānanda, if you had known, not even that much would have occurred to you (to say).1 I, along with all 500 of these monks, have been sitting in imperturbable concentration.”

My Analysis

So in DN 16 when Buddha can't hear or see during a loud thunderstorm, the only description of that meditation is "peaceful dwelling" (santa vihara). 

But from the next paragraph where his teacher Alara kalama is also in an meditative attainment where he can't hear sounds of 500 carts rolling by, we know this attainment is most likely the dimension of nothingness or neither perception or non perception (since that's the meditation the Buddha learned from him).  

The formless samadhis are explicitly described as having the 5 senses shut off (hearing, seeing, etc...) in MN 43 or MN 44. Also, the first formless attainment standard formula, 'sabbaso rupa sanna samitikkamna...' (all form perceptions surmounted, diversity of 5 sensory perceptions not focused on...). The formless attainments are also called im-perturble (anenja), so as that moniker suggests, one would not be perturbed by loud sounds because you can't hear, aren't paying attention to sounds that would have been heard by your physical body. 

So now coming back to DN 21, where the Buddha can hear sounds while is on meditation retreat solitude (patisallana) and in a samadhi (which samadhi not explicitly specified), he 'emerges' (vutthata) because of the sound of Sakka's chariot moving. 

By deduction, we can determine the samadhi is most likely one of the 4 jhanas.

It's also possible he's in an impure version of the 4 formless attainments, where selective hearing is possible.

In either case, DN 21 adds more evidence strongly against Vism.'s claim that in the four jhanas, one can not hear sounds. Although it would be fun to hear a Vism. proponent argue their case in response to the blog post. It's always fun to watch weasels squirm and try to work their weasel craft. But it's not so fun when the weasel misinterpretation is the accepted truth by most of the Buddhist community.


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