Skip to main content

AN 3.67 Kathāvatthu sutta, what about Bhikkhus evading credible challenges to their erroneous views?


quote from AN 3.67

 

Re: How to Discuss the Dhamma

Post by frank k » 

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: ↑Mon Sep 02, 2024 4:53 pm... (from a sutta) If, monks, when asked a question he does not change the subject, thus keeping the discussion on-topic, if he does not become angry or sullen; then he is fit to discuss with.”
...
Here is a thread from 2016.
Sujato posted 2nd message on this thread, a link to his essay with his wrong interpretation of vitakka.
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/wh ... ra/3148/28

The message #28 that I link to above, is from Sept. 2023,
where he is directly engaged in questioning about his vitakka interpretation and translation,
and evades the subject.


So seven years at least, on public record where an ordained Bhikkhu is not exactly changing the subject,
but definitely not "keeping the discussion on topic" in the spirit of the meaning.

Normally, I don't care if someone, even a monastic, has wrong views on anything,
that's just the way of the world.

But someone who is very popular, very influential, his sutta translations are probably quoted more than anyone else's nowadays,
has a responsibility to answer any credible challenges to their translation on important key terms.

What do you think, Ven. Pesala?



Re: How to Discuss the Dhamma

Post by frank k » 

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: ↑Sat Sep 14, 2024 12:54 amThe PTS Dictionary gives several meanings of Vitakka, including “thinking,” but in the context of the factors of jhāna I use the translation “Initial Application.” It is the mental factor that applies the mind to an object, paying attention to it, in order to understand its true nature....
Thanks Ven., I should have been more specific in my question.
I wasn't asking you what your understanding of vitakka's definition was.
I was only interested in the context of this thread,
what are proper protocol in discussing Dhamma,
especially by influential Buddhist teachers like Ajahn Sujato, Brahm, Analayo, who have widespread teachings on jhāna through their translation, interpretation, etc.

The thread link I shared,
Sujato had been evading the question of why he insists on his interpretation when people show many suttas and canonical texts that contradict it.
Over a 7 year period of time he's been evading these questions.

AN 3.67 doesn't really address that, neither does the vinaya AFAIK.
If experts showing detailed evidence that Sujato's interpretation of vitakka is incoherent,
isn't he obligated by some moral code, if not vinaya,
to at least respond and give some explanation of why he doesn't agree with credible challenges?
This is a dispute of major aspects of Dhamma that have huge implications on how people practice Dhamma,
not some trivial issue where busy monks and busy people could be expected to avoid answering.

Again, It's not about whether Sujato's interpretation of vitakka is correct, 
it's about one's honor, integrity, moral code, to answer credible challenges from experts with detailed evidence from the suttas
challenging one's interpretation.



Comments

Post a Comment

Popular posts from this blog

Advice to younger meditators on jhāna, sex, porn, masturbation

Someone asked: Is porn considered harmful sexual.activity? I don't have a sex life because I don't have a partner and I don't wish to engage in casual sex so I use porn to quench the biological urge to orgasm. I can't see that's it's harmful because nobody is being forced into it. The actors are all paid well and claim to enjoy it etc. The only harm I can see is that it's so accessible these days on smart devices and so children may access it but I believe that this is the parents responsibility to not allow unsupervised use of devices etc. Views? Frankk response: In another thread, you asked about pleasant sensations and jhāna.  I'm guessing you're young, so here's some important advice you won't get from suttas   if you're serious about jhāna.  (since monastics are already celibate by rule)   If you want to attain stable and higher jhānas,   celibacy and noble silence to the best of your ability are the feedstock and prerequiste to tha
Post a Comment
Read more

SN 48.40 Ven. Thanissaro comments on Ven. Sunyo's analysis

This was Ven. Sunyo's analysis of SN 48.40: https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2024/05/exciting-news-honest-ebt-scholars-like.html And here is Ven. Thanissaro's response to that analysis: I think there’s a better way to tackle the issue of SN 48:40 than by appealing to the oldest layers of commentarial literature. That way is to point out that SN 48:40, as we have it, doesn’t pass the test in DN 16 for determining what’s genuine Dhamma and what’s not. There the standard is, not the authority of the person who’s claiming to report the Buddha’s teachings, but whether the teachings he’s reporting are actually in accordance with the principles of the Dhamma that you know. So the simple fact that those who have passed the Buddha’s teachings down to us say that a particular passage is what the Buddha actually taught is not sufficient grounds for accepting it. In the case of the jhānas—the point at issue here— we have to take as our guide the standard formula for the jhānas, a
Post a Comment
Read more

1min. video: Dalai Lama kissing boy and asking him to suck his tongue

To give more context, this is a public event,  * everyone knows cameras are rolling  *  it's a room full of children * the boy's mom is standing off camera a few feet away watching all of this * the boy initiated contact, he had already had a hug with Dalai Lama earlier and then asked Dalai Lama for another hug which triggered this segment  17 min. video showing what happened before that 1 min. clip and after, with some explanation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT0qey5Ts78 16min talk from Ajahn Acalo with his thoughts on Dalai Lama kissing boy, relevance to Bhikkhu monastic code, sexual predators in religion in general, and how celibate monastics deal with sexual energy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2m0TcUib0 The child's comments about the incident in a filmed interview later https://www.marca.com/en/lifestyle/world-news/2023/04/18/643eba5d46163ffc078b457c.html The child: It's a great experience It was amazing to meet His Holiness and I think it's a great ex
Post a Comment
Read more