is "mindfulness immersed in the body" a proper translation/interpretation for kāyagatā sati?

 

Re: "Gata" translated as "Immersed"

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Post by frank k » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:44 am

Kumara wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:14 amIn http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/bodymind.html
I see Aj Thanissaro translating Kayagata-sati as "Mindfulness Immersed in the Body"

Seems like a stretch to me to translate "gata" as "immersed". What do you think?

What alternatives do you propose Bhante?
I'm using AT's 'immersed' for now, but I'll change to something else if we think it's problematic.
I'm ok with Assaji's proposed 'body-related' sati, but I'm not seeing what's so bad about 'immersed'.
What exactly is the problem, what misunderstanding are people going to have that negatively impacts their understanding of kayagatasati?

I think kayagatasati, like marana-sati, anapana-sati, and just sati, are all already commonly misunderstood. And the reason is because the Buddha is not labeling those practices with long descriptive precise words. They're meant to be short nicknames to be easily referred to.

I edited the wikipedia page for marana-sati to give it the correct meaning, and some low life reverted my changes a few weeks later with no explanation and notification, and almost a year later I noticed that and changed it back again, this time setting alerts to let me know if anyone tries to change it.
Marana sati is not a general inquiry into the nature and implications of death. The Buddha gave it a precise meaning in the suttas.

I bring up that incident because it's partially caused by people reading too much into the name 'marana sati' and thinking it's fully describing the practice.
"mindfulness" as we know is completely misunderstood by most people. It takes careful sutta study to actually reveal that
sati means one remembers Dharma [teachings, instructions] relevant to the task at hand, using 4 satipatthana as the default.
It would be unwieldy to say that every time, so the Buddha just says ,'sati.'

Similarly with kayagata, we can't expect a correct translation is going to make people understand what the practice actually is.Disciples during the Buddha's time would have needed an explanation, because it's just a short nickname, just like marana sati, and sati.

www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org STED definitions

Re: "Gata" translated as "Immersed"

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Post by Assaji » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:05 am

Kumara wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:14 amIn http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/bodymind.html
I see Aj Thanissaro translating Kayagata-sati as "Mindfulness Immersed in the Body"

Seems like a stretch to me to translate "gata" as "immersed". What do you think?

"Immersed" surely contradicts the Commentary:

Bhāvetabbaniddese kāyagatāsatīti kāyagatāsatisuttante (ma. ni. 3.153 ādayo) vuttā ānāpāna-catuiriyāpatha-khuddakairiyāpatha-dvattiṃsākāra-catudhātu-navasivathikāpaṭikūla- vavatthāpakamanasikāra-sampayuttā yathānurūpaṃ rūpajjhānasampayuttā ca sati. Sā hi tesu kāyesu gatā pavattāti kāyagatāti vuccati.

Patisambhidamagga-Atthakatha 1.123

From PED:

Pavatta (adj.) [pp. of pavattati] 1. (adj.) happening, going on, procedure, resulting Th 2, 220 (assu ca pavattaŋ, taken by Mrs. Rh. D. as "tears shed"); ThA 179; PvA 35, 83 (gāthāyo), 120, esp. with ref. to natural products as "that which comes," i. e. normal, natural, raw; ˚phala ready or natural, wild fruit (gained without exertion of picking), in cpds. ˚phalika SnA 295 sq.; ˚bhojana (adj.) J i.6; iii.365; Vism 422, and, ˚bhojin one who lives on wild fruit (a certain class of ascetics, tāpasā) D i.101; M i.78, 343; A i.241; ii.206; cp. DA i.269 sq. & SnA 295, 296. ˚maŋsa fresh or raw meat (flesh) Vin i.217 (cp. Vin. Texts ii.81). -- 2. (nt.) "that which goes on," i. e. the circle or whirl of existence Miln 197, 326 (cp. Miln trsln ii.200 "starting afresh in innumerable births," quot. fr. C.), opp. appavatta freedom from Saŋsāra, i. e. Nibbāna ibid. -- 3. founded on, dealing with, relating to, being in S iv.115 (kuraraghare p. pabbata); DA i.92 (ādinaya˚), 217 (˚pīti -- sukha being in a state of happiness).

Gata [pp. of gacchati in medio -- reflexive function] gone, in all meanings of gacchati (q. v.) viz. 1. literal: gone away, arrived at, directed to (c. acc.), opp. ṭhita: gate ṭhite nisinne (loc. abs.) when going, standing, sitting down (cp. gacchati 1) D i.70; opp. āgata: yassa maggaŋ na jānāsi āgatassa gatassa vā Sn 582 (cp. gati 2). Also periphrastic (=gacchati 5 b): aṭṭhi paritvā gataŋ "the bone fell down" J iii.26. Very often gata stands in the sense of a finite verb (=aor. gacchi or agamāsi): yo ca Buddhaŋ . . . saraṇaŋ gato (cp. gacchati 4) Dh 190; attano vasanaṭṭhānaŋ gato he went to his domicile J i.280; ii.160; nāvā Aggimālaŋ gatā the ship went to Aggimālā J iv.139. <-> 2. in applied meaning: gone in a certain way, i. e. affected, behaved, fared, fated, being in or having come into a state or condition. So in sugata & duggata (see below) and as 2nd part of cpds. in gen., viz. gone; atthaŋ˚ gone home, set; addha˚ done with the journey (cp. gat -- addhin); gone into: taṇhā˚ fallen a victim to thirst, tama˚ obscured, raho˚, secluded, vyasana˚ fallen into misery; having reached: anta˚ arrived at the goal (in this sense often combd with patta: antagata antapatta Nd2, 436, 612), koṭi˚ perfected, parinibbāna˚ having ceased to exist. vijjā˚ having attained (right) knowledge; connected with, referring to, concerning: kāya˚ relating to the body (kāyagatā sati, e. g. Vism 111, 197, 240 sq.); diṭṭhi˚ being of a (wrong) view; sankhāra˚, etc. -- Sometimes gata is replaced by kata and vice versa: anabhāvaŋkata>anabhāvaŋ gacchati; kālagata>kālakata (q. v.).

Pali Terms Index

Re: "Gata" translated as "Immersed"

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Post by frank k » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:05 am

Hi Assaji, can you expand on what you mean contradicting the cmy? KN Ps bit you quoted looks like it's defining KGS (kaya gata..) as the exercises listed in MN 119. Does "Mindfulness Immersed in the Body" contradict that?
And which meaning of pavatta is being applied in the KN Ps cmy?
Could you state briefly how you understand the cmy, and what are better translations for KGS ? I'm surely missing nuances from my level of pali comprehension.

Hi Frank,

frank k wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:05 amcan you expand on what you mean contradicting the cmy? KN Ps bit you quoted looks like it's defining KGS (kaya gata..) as the exercises listed in MN 119. Does "Mindfulness Immersed in the Body" contradict that?

Yes. Nine charnel ground contemplations are related to the body, there's no "immersion" in the body.

And which meaning of pavatta is being applied in the KN Ps cmy?

Third one from PED, which I highlighted in bold.

Could you state briefly how you understand the cmy, and what are better translations for KGS ? I'm surely missing nuances from my level of pali comprehension.

You understood it pretty well, the Commentary lists the exercises described in MN 119. Translation in PED and Margaret Cone's dictionary as "relating to the body" is better.

Sphairos gave above a useful gloss:

Kāyagatāsatinti kāyapariggāhikampi kāyārammaṇampi satiṃ. Kāyapariggāhikanti vutte samatho kathito hoti, kāyārammaṇanti vutte vipassanā.

Retention related to the body is the retention which prehends the body or has the body as the basis. The one which prehends the body is spoken of with reference to samatha, the one which has the body as the basis is spoken of with reference to vipassanā.

Re: "Gata" translated as "Immersed"

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Post by frank k » Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:25 am

Kumara wrote: ↑Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:58 pmquoting scholar...: In the Janapada Sutta of the Satipaṭṭhāna Saṃyutta in the Saṃyutta Nikāya, the Buddha made the following simile: Suppose a great crowd were to assemble to see the most beautiful girl of the country singing and dancing. A man would be ordered to carry around a bowl of oil full to the brim between the crowd and the girl, and he would be killed if he spilt even a little oil. The Buddha explained that “the bowl of oil full to the brim” represents kāyagatā sati (SN V 170), which is rendered as “mindfulness directed to the body” by Bodhi (2000 , p. 1649). This Pali expression kāyagatā sati should not be construed as mindfulness directed to the physical body, because kāya here refers not to the physical body alone, but to “an individual that is able to perceive through his senses” as Kuan ( 2008 , pp. 99–103) demonstrated. The term kāyagatā sati is synonymous with kāyasati (mindfulness of one’s sentient organism) that appears in the Dukkhadhamma Sutta quoted above (see Kuan 2008 , pp. 43–44).
...

While I don't disagree that all 4sp are necessary to perform kayagatasati (KGS), I believe there is an emphasis on involving attention on the physical body, and not just generically referring to 4sp.
Here are all the pali sutta references to KGS:
http://lucid24.org/sted/kayagatasati/index.html

Especially check out (AN 1.583 This is 2nd jhāna here, done in conjunction with kāyagatā-sati)

“Eka-dhamme, bhikkhave, bhāvite bahulīkate
“When one ☸Dharma, monks, is developed and cultivated
kāyopi passambhati, cittampi passambhati,
the body and mind become pacified,
vitakka-vicārā-pi vūpasammanti,
thinking and considering settle down,
kevalāpi vijjābhāgiyā dhammā
and all of the ☸Dharmas that play a part in realization
Bhāvanā-pāripūriṃ gacchanti.
are developed to perfection.
Katamasmiṃ Eka-dhamme?
What one ☸Dharma?
kāya-gatāya satiyā.
body-immersed remembering.

That should remind people of another practice that is bodily sensation immersed known for cutting off vitakka and vicara, anapanassati breath meditation.

So anapana, KGS, chapanaka sutta (6 animals restrained by KGS as post), janapada (beauty queen, balancing bowl of oil), all feature continuous careful attention to physical body awareness.

If one were to take KGS as just another way of saying kaya doing 4sp satipatthana, obviously breath meditation and janapada and chapanaka only doing citta anupassana wouldn't work for most people. The untrained mind trying to watch itself gets lost in confused thoughts and doesn't even know it's getting lost. KGS is giving you a concrete anchoring reference so it's clear when the mind has wandered off from the anchor.