Tilman Vetter wrote:“it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
Arguments don't get much more QED than that. With a single sentence Tilman Vetter cuts asunder endless pages of baloney from the promoters of jhāna-lite.
Tilman Vetter wrote:“it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
Arguments don't get much more QED than that. With a single sentence Tilman Vetter cuts asunder endless pages of baloney from the promoters of jhāna-lite.
That seems to ignore the fact that persisting feelings are constantly undergoing change and so in a sense are constantly arising and passing away. I’d suggest it isn’t entirely unreasonable to think the passing away of rapture in the first jhana might simply mean noticing that one particular upsurge of rapture is fading, meanwhile another one has just started rising up. I’m pretty sure everyone who has ever meditated on pain knows that it can persist but at the same time one can see how the qualities of the pain are constantly shifting, albeit in subtle ways, and that noticing the constant passing away of pain within a generally persistent state of pain provides a kind of relief.
Yes, indeed, arguments by Tilman Vetter and Analayo are faulty, since jhana is not a building set in stone, it is a dynamic equilibrium of impermanent mental phenomena.
"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self.
Frankk's take on the whole MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism.
I see MN 111 as an early Abhidhamma composition, not EBT. Just as with anything in Theravada commentary, Abhidhamma, and Vism., we have to compare it to core EBT Dhamma and see if it agrees. If it does, no problem. If it doesn't, then we have to recognize when something is coherent and consistent with EBT and when it's a distinct strand of later Buddhist thought.
MN 111 is entirely consistent with AN 4.41, which is entirely about how the 4 jhana fits in samadhi development, and section 3 S&S is clearly explaining what S&S do in 3rd and 4th jhana.
MN 111 is simply an expanded list from AN 4.41's section 3 and section 4 (AN 9.36 explains how destroying asava happens WHILE in the 4 jhanas and first 7 perception attainments).
You can see Ven. Dhammando and the person he quotes, are just relying on some kind of useless sophistry, similar to the circular (fallacious) logic B. Analayo uses to analyze MN 111. The real issue is that the definition of 'jhana' they're relying on is not the Buddha's definition of Jhana (in the EBT), but late Theravada Abhidhamma circa Vism. period, which is an entirely different samadhi development system.
It would be strongly advisable not to use the term 'Jhana lite' to denigrate those who place primacy on the Buddha's words over the redefinition and reinterpretation of Buddhists who came hundreds of years later. I can not imagine the kind of heavy karma incurred by this, it's essentially slandering the Buddha.
It's laughable that anyone could seriously think kamehi is referring to objects rather than desire in the first jhana formula. Even if we were to accept that interpretation of kamehi referring to objects, there are lots of ways to be secluded from objects without having to enter vism. redefinition of jhana or jabrama "jhana". For example, we could put Ajahn Brahm in a sensory deprivation tank, put that tank on a space ship, and send it off to mars. He would be secluded from sense objects, but he doesn't have to also be in a "heavy jhana frozen stupor" to be 'secluded'. He's already secluded from 5 objects, secluded from earth, and he can still think and ponder over his wrong views on jhana while he's in that tank. That would not impact his seclusion from objects.
I've just updated this comprehensive detailed study glossing very sutta, and several non EBT sources including Vism. Read it, book mark it, and don't bring up the topic again unless you can actually produce something of value that hasn't already been discussed to death and definitively disproven.
And a new bit of info, from Chinese Agamas first jhana formula: In the Chinese EBT Agamas, 'kāmehi" translated as 5kg, agreeing with Pali EBT
Five strands of sensuality is almost invariably translated as wuyu (lit. "five desires"). In other words, the Chinese makes it clear that it is the "desire" that is renounced, and not the "sensual stimulation" (i.e. the sensory experience itself, as Sujato would have it) that is renounced.
Someone asked: Is porn considered harmful sexual.activity? I don't have a sex life because I don't have a partner and I don't wish to engage in casual sex so I use porn to quench the biological urge to orgasm. I can't see that's it's harmful because nobody is being forced into it. The actors are all paid well and claim to enjoy it etc. The only harm I can see is that it's so accessible these days on smart devices and so children may access it but I believe that this is the parents responsibility to not allow unsupervised use of devices etc. Views? Frankk response: In another thread, you asked about pleasant sensations and jhāna. I'm guessing you're young, so here's some important advice you won't get from suttas if you're serious about jhāna. (since monastics are already celibate by rule) If you want to attain stable and higher jhānas, celibacy and noble silence to the best of your ability are the feedstock and prerequiste to tha...
This was Ven. Sunyo's analysis of SN 48.40: https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2024/05/exciting-news-honest-ebt-scholars-like.html And here is Ven. Thanissaro's response to that analysis: I think there’s a better way to tackle the issue of SN 48:40 than by appealing to the oldest layers of commentarial literature. That way is to point out that SN 48:40, as we have it, doesn’t pass the test in DN 16 for determining what’s genuine Dhamma and what’s not. There the standard is, not the authority of the person who’s claiming to report the Buddha’s teachings, but whether the teachings he’s reporting are actually in accordance with the principles of the Dhamma that you know. So the simple fact that those who have passed the Buddha’s teachings down to us say that a particular passage is what the Buddha actually taught is not sufficient grounds for accepting it. In the case of the jhānas—the point at issue here— we have to take as our guide the standard formula for the jhānas, a...
To give more context, this is a public event, * everyone knows cameras are rolling * it's a room full of children * the boy's mom is standing off camera a few feet away watching all of this * the boy initiated contact, he had already had a hug with Dalai Lama earlier and then asked Dalai Lama for another hug which triggered this segment 17 min. video showing what happened before that 1 min. clip and after, with some explanation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT0qey5Ts78 16min talk from Ajahn Acalo with his thoughts on Dalai Lama kissing boy, relevance to Bhikkhu monastic code, sexual predators in religion in general, and how celibate monastics deal with sexual energy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2m0TcUib0 The child's comments about the incident in a filmed interview later https://www.marca.com/en/lifestyle/world-news/2023/04/18/643eba5d46163ffc078b457c.html The child: It's a great experience It was amazing to meet His Holiness and I think it's a great ex...
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