Monday, September 9, 2019

SN 48.40 (S V 213) is a corrupt sutta


SN 48.40 (S V 213) corrupt sutta

Vism. uses SN 48.40 to justify body disappearing in 4 jhanas, and 5 vedana indriya faculties disappearing in nonsensical order in the 4 jhanas, contradicting more fundamental EBT suttas, and contradicting other schools of EBT.

clarification on feeling in buddhist dhyana compares the discrepancies

https://ahandfulofleaves.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/clairification-on-feelings-in-buddhist-dhyana_jhana-meditation_kuan_jip_2005.pdf

and here with some derived versions (epub, html)


Vism: {curly braces are my comments}

186. But if these are only abandoned at the moments of access of the several jhānas, why is their cessation said to. take place in the jhāna itself in the following passage: “And where does the arisen pain faculty cease without remainder? Here, bhikkhus, quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unprofitable things, a bhikkhu enters upon and dwells in the first jhāna, which is … born of seclusion.
It is here {first jhana} that the arisen pain faculty ceases without remainder …
Where does the arisen grief faculty [cease without remainder? … in the second jhāna] …
Where does the arisen pleasure faculty [cease without remainder? … in the third jhāna] …
Where does the arisen joy faculty cease without remainder? {4th jhana} [166] Here, bhikkhus, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain [and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief] a bhikkhu enters upon and dwells in the fourth jhāna, which … has mindfulness purified by equanimity. It is here that the arisen joy faculty ceases without remainder” (S V 213–15).


It is said in that way there referring to reinforced cessation. For in the first jhāna, etc., it is their reinforced cessation, not just their cessation, that takes place. At the moment of access it is just their cessation, not their reinforced cessation, that takes place.
187. For accordingly, during the first jhāna access, which has multiple adverting, there could be rearising of the [bodily] pain faculty49 due to contact with gadflies, flies, etc. or the discomfort of an uneven seat, though that pain faculty had already ceased, but not so during absorption. Or else, though it has ceased during access, it has not absolutely ceased there since it is not quite beaten out by opposition. But during absorption the whole body is showered with bliss owing to pervasion by happiness. And the pain faculty has absolutely ceased in one whose body is showered with bliss, since it is beaten out then by opposition.

49. “They say that with the words, ‘There could be the arising of the pain faculty,’ it is shown that since grief arises even in obtainers of jhāna, it is demonstrated thereby that hate can exist without being a hindrance just as greed can; for grief does not arise without hate. Nor, they say, is there any conflict with the Paṭṭhāna text to be fancied here, since what is shown there is only grief that occurs making lost jhāna its object because the grief that occurs making its object a jhāna that has not been lost is not relevant there. And they say that it cannot be maintained that grief does not arise at all in those who have obtained jhāna since it did arise in Asita who had the eight attainments (Sn 691), and he was not one who had lost jhāna. So they say. That is wrong because there is no hate without the nature of a hindrance. If there were, it would arise in fine- material and immaterial beings, and it does not. Accordingly when in such passages as, ‘In the immaterial state, due to the hindrance of lust there is the hindrance of stiffness and torpor … the hindrance of agitation, the hindrance of ignorance’ (Paṭṭh II 291), ill will and worry are not mentioned as hindrances, that does not imply that they are not hindrances even by supposing that it was because lust, etc., were not actually hindrances and were called hindrances there figuratively because of resemblance to hindrances. And it is no reason to argue, ‘it is because it arose in Asita,’ since there is falling away from jhāna with the arising of grief. The way to regard that is that when the jhāna is lost for some trivial reason such men reinstate it without difficulty” (Vism-mhṭ 158–59).

188.And during the second-jhāna access too, which has multiple advertings, there could be rearising of the [mental] grief faculty, although it had already ceased there, because it arises when there is bodily weariness and mental vexation, which have applied thought and sustained thought as their condition, but it does not arise when applied and sustained thought are absent. When it arises, it does so in the presence of applied and sustained thought, and they are not abandoned in the second-jhāna access; but this is not so in the second jhāna itself because its conditions are abandoned there.
189. Likewise in the third-jhāna access there could be rearising of the abandoned [bodily] pleasure faculty in one whose body was pervaded by the superior materiality originated by the [consciousness associated with the] happiness. But not so in the third jhāna itself. For in the third jhāna the happiness that is a condition for the [bodily] bliss (pleasure) has ceased entirely. Likewise in the fourth-jhāna access there could be re-arising of the abandoned [mental] joy faculty because of its nearness and because it has not been properly surmounted owing to the absence of equanimity brought to absorption strength. But not so in the fourth jhāna itself. And that is why in each case (§186) the words “without remainder” are included thus: “It is here that the arisen pain faculty ceases without remainder.”
190. Here it may be asked: Then if these kinds of feeling are abandoned in the access in this way, why are they brought in here? It is done so that they can be readily grasped. For the neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling described here by the words “which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure” is subtle, hard to recognize and not readily grasped. So just as, when a cattle-herd50 wants to catch a refractory ox that cannot be caught at all by approaching it, he collects all the cattle into one pen [167] and lets them out one by one, and then [he says] “That is it; catch it,” and so it gets caught as well, so too the Blessed One has collected all these [five kinds of feeling] together so that they can be grasped readily; for when they are shown collected together in this way, then what is not [bodily] pleasure (bliss) or [bodily] pain or [mental] joy or [mental] grief can still be grasped in this way: “This is neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling.”
191. Besides, this may be understood as said in order to show the condition for the neither-painful-nor-pleasant mind-deliverance. For the abandoning of [bodily] pain, etc., are conditions for that, according as it is said: “There are four conditions, friend, for the attainment of the neither-painful-nor-pleasant mind- deliverance. Here, friend, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief a bhikkhu enters upon and dwells in the fourth jhāna … equanimity. These are the four conditions for the attainment of the neither-painful-nor-pleasant mind-deliverance” (M I 296).
192. Or alternatively, just as, although mistaken view of individuality, etc., have already been abandoned in the earlier paths, they are nevertheless mentioned as abandoned in the description of the third path for the purpose of recommending it (cf. §155), so too these kinds of feeling can be understood

Here are some of the key EBT suttas Vism. contradicts


Doesn’t explicitly use the word ‘jhana’, but the Te Cmy says this is talkng about first jhana, and it’s clear from all the factors sariputta mentions from 4th jhana that are not in first.
“Good, good, Sāriputta!
At a time when a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, five things aren’t present in him.
Yasmiṃ, sāriputta, samaye ariyasāvako pavivekaṃ pītiṃ upasampajja viharati, pañcassa ṭhānāni tasmiṃ samaye na honti.
The pain and sadness connected with sensual pleasures.
Yampissa kāmūpasaṃhitaṃ dukkhaṃ domanassaṃ, tampissa tasmiṃ samaye na hoti.
The pleasure and happiness connected with sensual pleasures.
Yampissa kāmūpasaṃhitaṃ sukhaṃ somanassaṃ, tampissa tasmiṃ samaye na hoti.
The pain and sadness connected with the unskillful.
Yampissa akusalūpasaṃhitaṃ dukkhaṃ domanassaṃ, tampissa tasmiṃ samaye na hoti.
The pleasure and happiness connected with the unskillful.
Yampissa akusalūpasaṃhitaṃ sukhaṃ somanassaṃ, tampissa tasmiṃ samaye na hoti.
The pain and sadness connected with the skillful.
Yampissa kusalūpasaṃhitaṃ dukkhaṃ domanassaṃ, tampissa tasmiṃ samaye na hoti.
At a time when a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, these five things aren’t present in him.”
Yasmiṃ, sāriputta, samaye ariyasāvako pavivekaṃ pītiṃ upasampajja viharati, imānissa pañca ṭhānāni tasmiṃ samaye na hontī”ti.

1. Sariputta says BOTH kusala and akusala dukkha and domanassa would have ceased prior to first jhana.
2. that agrees with the standard first jhana formula's 'vivicceva kamehi... akusalehi dhammehi', which would obviously include both dukkha-indriya (physical pain) and do-manassa (mental distress).





The Buddha goes out of his way to emphasize the manassa (mind) aspect of Pīti, and the body (kaya) aspect of sukha and passadhi.

Standard 3rd jhana formula, the there's no reason to believe the piti and kaya sukha is referring to anything that would contradict the 7sb formula.

(STED 3rd Jhāna)

🚫😁 pītiyā ca virāgā
🚫😁(with) Rapture {pīti manassa from 7sb}  ** fading,
👁 upekkhako ca viharati
👁 Equanimously-observing ** (he) dwells,
(S&S🐘💭) sato ca sam-pajāno,
(S&S🐘💭) (he is a) Rememberer, (a) lucid-discerner,
🙂🚶 sukhañca kāyena paṭi-saṃ-vedeti,
🙂🚶 pleasure with-the-body {from 7sb passaddha of kāya as opposed to citta} (he) experiences,
yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti —
that those Noble-Ones declare -
‘upekkhako satimā sukha-vihārī’ti
“(He is an) equanimous-observer (and a) Rememberer, (he has) pleasurable-abiding.”
🌖 tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
🌖 third Jhāna (he) enters, dwells.


Vism. is Bass Ackwards

If you compare the 7sb sequence above, with the Vism. passage above describing their VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana), Vism. is completely alien. Whereas SN 46.3, one develops sati and vitakka to think about inspiring Dhamma that arouses Piti/rapture of the mind (manassa), and THEN, citta (mind) and kaya (body) are pacified/passadhi.

VRJ, says one makes the perception of body disappear prior to first jhana, and then Piti showers the body and mind with pleasure.

EBT jhana, and VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana)  two completely different samadhi training systems. VRJ goes through these incoherent contortions to justify their radical momentariness Abhidhamma underlying theories.


Re: MN 138 upekkha-sukha error in pali CST4 source, should correction be sukha-kāyena, or sukha-kayassa?

Post by frank k » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:44 am
SN 48.40 (S V 213) is a corrupt sutta
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... utta.html

It's such a contradictory unusable mess that not even Ajahn Brahm and B. Sujato (who also try to redefine EBT jhana into Vism. redefinition of Jhana, minus the Abhidhamma underlying theory) rely on that sutta as evidence.

SN 36 Vedana samyutta,
suttas using 3 fold vedana scheme where anatomical body is the cause of vedana
sutta #4, 6, 7, 12, 13



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